Part of Pine Valley's architectural genius ?

[JESII]

Mark,

I didn't realize they hosted a golf league...



When Pat wakes up from his first nap of the day I am sure he will refute everything I have said on his behalf...

[Mark_Fine]

JES,
My comment was "if our golf league played there", they now play at a local municipal course. 

[Phil McDade]

 

I would take all bets that if I took a legitimate 18 handicapper to Pine Valley he would not even get close to shooting his handicap and likely have at least two XX's on his card if playing by the rules of golf.

From everything I've read and seen about PV, I think this is true (and spoken as a legitimate 18-handicapper on my good days...).

I often think GCA posters forget that the typical 18-handicapper is an 18-handicap on their home course -- which they know and play a lot, and is way more forgiving than most of the courses discussed here, and particularly so with a course like PV. An 18 golfer screws up ONCE a hole, on average, on every hole. A wayward tee shot that's well off the fairway, a topped mid-iron, a sand shot left in the bunker, a lag putt that lags 12 feet short of the hole. These are the everyday experiences of most 18 handicappers.

I can't imagine that PV wouldn't geometrically punish the typical shots of an 18-handicapper. I'm not even sure, unless I really improved my game, that I'd even accept an invitation to play there.

Dan -- I don't doubt that PV's green are terrific. But Pat's argument was that its large greens and wide fairways make the course playable for the high-handicapper. I obviously wouldn't know without playing it, but PV strikes me as just about the most penal course a high-handicapper could play.

[TEPaul]

"The buried lede in the discussion above is "rough." 

PV doesn't have very much. You tend to be either in the fw or in the trees (or worse).

Would PV be a better course if the existing tree line was cut back and replaced with more rough?  Or would even wider fw's be better?"


Bob:

Like most courses were, Pine Valley was not designed using "rough" as most all of us think of rough---eg grass rough.

They have about three steps wide swaths on the sides of each fairway now and even though they and the super would probably prefer to not even have that it is necessary for a place for the fairway mowers to "turn".

It has often occured to me that if Pine Valley decided to go with the old-fashioned "up and back" (light and dark) look and fairway mow pattern they would no longer need those 3 step wide swaths of rough on either side of the fairways.

[Kalen Braley]

Phil,

As an 18 handicapper, I don't find this to be the case.  Over the recent KP weekend, I amassed several pars during all of my rounds and even had a hot back 9 at ODM with 4-5 pars much to the chagrin of Lou who is a fine player. 

I get my high handicap from the "other" holes.  Instead of limiting the bad holes to a bogey like a low capper, its not uncommon for me to have 3-4 double bogeys during a round and a triple or two.  Take away the bad holes and I'm easily a single digit capper.

[Mark_Fine]

Kalen,
If you are a true 18 handicapper, I would be happy to take that bet I proposed with you.  If fact, I would be willing to wager that the next time you are there, ask your caddie (ask any caddie) if he will take that bet with you and they will gladly accept "without any hesitation"    Bet them the caddie fee 
Mark

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
If you are a true 18 handicapper, I would be happy to take that bet I proposed with you.  If fact, I would be willing to wager that the next time you are there, ask your caddie (ask any caddie) if he will take that bet with you and they will gladly accept "without any hesitation"    Bet them the caddie fee 
Mark

Mark,

I doubt I would break 100 at Pine Valley, but I'm more than willing to give it a shot if you want to setup the round.   

In all seriousness though, I was only rebutting Phils claim that a 18 has at least one bad shot on every hole...and this plain isn't the case.  Even in my pathetic state I can put 2-3 pars back to back to back together and not have any bad shots.  But then the next hole after that is a triple.  Its frustrating, but such is life.   

[Mark_Fine]

Kalen,
I agree with you.  The problem at Pine Valley is that a bad shot usually costs you more than one stroke.  I am a 1.5 index and I find at Pine Valley that I probably make more double bogies than bogies.  The penalty is that severe.  For higher handicappers, that penalty is even worse and the fear factor of knowing this only makes it more difficult.
Mark

[Phil McDade]

An 18 golfer screws up ONCE a hole, on average, on every hole.

Kalen:

I'm not very good at math, but my 18-handicap, on an 18-hole course, often works out to one lost stroke per hole -- on average -- when I do the calculations.

I suppose we all get to our 18s one way or another. I'm sometimes like you -- a run of a few pars, followed by the wayward drive compounded by the topped 5-iron and then the three-putt after that. But when playing my usual 18-handicap game, I'm missing a shot per hole.

As Mark suggests, I can easily see my bogies turning into doubles and triples and my doubles and triples turning into double-digit scores per hole. Par for me -- on my local muni track -- is still a good score; I have a tough time imagining parring any hole at PV.

Does anyone know: what tee set-ups do they have there? As in, whites, blues, blacks? Can you play PV @ 6,000-6,200 yards?

[Dan Herrmann]

Phil,
Last time I was there (watching the Crump Cup), they had two sets of tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I also have not been fortunate yet to play PV (maybe Kings Putter VIII?)

However, large greens lend to putts of extremely long length for a missed approach that are difficult to 2-putt. If the same shot into the green was to a smaller green, typical rough and mounds around the green keep the ball from finishing so far away from the hole. A 40-foot chip is easier than a 100-foot putt, IMO.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

No one chips from 40 feet off the greens at PV.

40 feet removed from the green you're in bunkers, sandy areas, pine forests or worse.

There's an inherent safety on the greens.

On a green you may three putt.

40 feet removed from the green, and you may never make it to the green while it's still daylight.

Just try missing # 13 green 40 feet left.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,
Last time I was there (watching the Crump Cup), they had two sets of tees.

Dan,

PV has three (3) sets of tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -

Once again I'm gonna take JES' word on something, in this case because it also jibes very well with what I saw in the Nelson-Littler match.

Yes, the fairways are wide and the greens big, but those two great old champs needed (and used) every inch of both - and still got hammered.

Which is to say, Pine Valley must be one of a kind, i.e. the wide fairways and large greens help good players stand a chance, and help the average player stay barely alive

Peter,

I played with a 12 handicapper, not far removed from knee surgery and he did more than stay alive, he played quite well, making a good number of pars and near miss birdies.

The golf course is eminently FAIR for all golfers under normal conditions.

It's only when they convert the greens to linoleum that the problems increase exponentially.

[Chip Gaskins]

I think what does in the higher handicap player is intimidation and fear of what happens if you miss the fairway or green.

I think Tommy hit on it.  The whole course drives you mentally crazy...disaster is at every turn and that is what drives 18 handicaps to shoot such high numbers.  Don't get me wrong they probably hit their normal share of bad shots, but the course has them beat before they pull the club back because they are scared to death of what might happen.

[Dan Boerger]

Also, there is no let up at PV. By the time you get to 18 you're pretty mentally exhausted. Every part of your game will be tested and many first timers will literally be twitching on that tee box  ...

[archie_struthers]

 

There is definitely a comfort factor at Pine Valley....I truly believe it is one of the greatest home court advantages in golf for the expert player....understanding the angles of attack is probably the greatest advantage an expert "homer" enjoys...he is apt to make good aggressive swings because of the innate comfort of having been there enough,,
Note the number of Crump Cup winners that have emerged from the membership and frequent visitors list....it's a big percentage

I found that hgher handicap golfers would tend to play fairly well in stretches , as many of the shots are eminently fair....however when the stroke play flag goes down ...whether in a tournament or an against (X)
bet , the spectre of a big number almost guarantees same!

[Rick Sides]

o

[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick - thanks.

I'm guessing that your 12-handicap friend is a straight driver of the golf ball (though probably not a long hitter) and perhaps a better than average iron player. 

In that instance, PV is fair in the sense that the results/scores are commensurate with the level of talent/quality of shots -- and probably very PRECISELY commensurate.

That is, a different kind of 12 handicapper -- e.g. a long but wild driver -- would not fare as well, and an 18 handicapper would fare even worse, and a crooked driving 18 worse than a straight driving 18

So, from what I've read here, maybe one could describe PV as EXACTINGLY FAIR.

What do you think?

Peter

[Phil McDade]

Peter:

Have you played PV? I sort of get back to my original response to Patrick, based on study of photos of the course and footage from things like Shell's.

It's not just the penal nature of the course immediately off the fairways and greens that looks intimidating -- they are, as many here have suggested, quite wide and big. It's the carries required to get to them that also, from my perspective as both a short and somewhat wild striker of the ball (moreso driver than irons), look quite intimidating.

In some respects, I think the course would play as something of a par 76 or 78 at a minimum for an 18-handicapper, because I'm guessing most 18-handicappers would play all of the par 4s of 400+ yards as par 5s, because the carries into the greens (and more precisely, the penal nature of shorting those approaches) simply aren't in their arsenal. (PV has, according to my dated World Atlas of Golf, six par 4s of 400+ yards, plus two others at 391 and 399).

[John Sabino]

Patrick - The wide fairways and large greens are clearly part of what makes it great, but I think a bigger factor is the penalty for missing the greens is so harsh. I don't find the forced carries that intimidating or difficult to carry. The genius is that is that a premium is placed on hitting greens accurately. For example, being left, right or long on the first green is deadly. Being long on two is severe. Missing the third green is penal, etc. A lot of the genius is the way it wears you out mentally as others have suggested. Joe

[Peter Pallotta]

I haven't, Phil.

I saw Nelson and Littler play it, and it struck me that the wide fairways and big greens would help the average player only stay barely alive (for many of the reasons you and others mention).  My last post was bouncing off Pat's assessment of PV as being FAIR and the experience of his 12 handicap friend -- who strikes me as one heck of a 12 handicap.

Peter

[Jim Briggs]

Phil

Newbie here (who feels much more comfortable to make comment in this thread then the Merion ones!).  While I've never played PV, as an 18 handicap, with just average length off the tee, I'm sure that I would employ the strategy of looking at the longer par 4's as par 5's for me.   Was exactly my thinking on 15 at Bethpage Black last year.  Knew there was no way I was going to get there in two, so from the tee was planning for a layup to wedge distance (which I perfectly executed, then proceeded to leave myself way above the hole on my wedge and then 3 putt for a double... )

Jim

[TEPaul]

Archie:

I think you're exactly right that Pine Valley just may provide one of the biggest "home-court" advantages to the good player I've ever seen on a golf course anywhere.

And that is exactly why I picked Chris Lange to win the Philadelphia OPEN when it was held at PV about 5 or 6 years ago and damned if he didn't almost do it. He would've had it but he made sort of an uncharacteristic mistake or two right at the end and just lost it to a pro.

I mean it's not that Lange is not a great amateur because he sure is but I just knew he would have a huge advantage at Pine Valley because he knows all its complexities a lot better than just about anyone else in the field.

But the true key to Lange's success in things like that are the fact that he absolutely never seems to let really tough and maybe borderline unfair conditions get in his head. I really saw that when he won the Philadelphia Open at Philly C.C. All these pros were just bitching and mowning and tearing their hair out over how tough the greens were playing and I followed him and he's just whistling along loving how tough it all is and damned if he didn't just nip them all.

It was one of the best testimonies I ever saw of how a player can prevail when he doesn't let adversity get in his head at all when it's getting in everyone else's. 

[Mark_Fine]

Oakmont would be right there as far as home-court advantage.  The standing bet the members have at Oakmont is that if you come in to play two rounds of golf, your second round score will be higher than your first round score.  So much for gaining "course knowledge" 

[JESII]

Oakmont would be right there as far as home-court advantage.  The standing bet the members have at Oakmont is that if you come in to play two rounds of golf, your second round score will be higher than your first round score.  So much for gaining "course knowledge" 

I'm not really sure what that means...but I do know that I feel like I know HVCC too well and that it hurts me in any sort of medal play competition.