Is Sand Hills the greatest course in the US?

[THuckaby2]

Brad - many UK links have elevated approaches as well.

Sand Hills likely has more than most of the famous ones.

Making this a disqualifier for greatness is curious to me.  Which of the raised approaches at Sand Hills is at the end of anything but a GREAT golf hole?  Which of these is repetitive?

The whole issue is odd to me.  But as I say, to each his own....

TH

[Brad Swanson]

Tom,
   Don't get me wrong, I love the uphill approaches, and they contribute to my lofty praise for this great course.  I'm just trying to see the discussion from another point of view.  Several of these uphill approaches are quite repelling in nature if you don't hit the shot just right, and I'm wondering how often that is the case in GBI.

Cheers,
Brad

[Tony_Chapman]

Tom,
   Don't get me wrong, I love the uphill approaches, and they contribute to my lofty praise for this great course.  I'm just trying to see the discussion from another point of view.  Several of these uphill approaches are quite repelling in nature if you don't hit the shot just right, and I'm wondering how often that is the case in GBI.

Cheers,
Brad

Gents - I can't help but think of my brother (a 4 hcp, at the time) when we played there in 1996 on the first hole when he made an 11. He was over the green in two and then he hit down the swale and he couldn't get it up the green for the life of him with that little 40 yard pitch shot. He then proceeded to rattle of something like 12 consecutive 4's. Fun stuff.

As an aside, I was digging through some stuff my mom had saved for me last night and to my surprise was our letter from "The Sand Hills Golf Company" stating our tee time and directions to the course signed by Mr. Kidd. Safe to say it will be hung up in the golf room in the near future.  

[Lou_Duran]

Having done a Google search, I've found that Mr. Wyatt, in addition to being an active octogenarian industrialist, he is also a man of letters, and a world-class photographer specializing in golf architecture.  His fine contributions on this thread helped me to understand why Sand Hills is no higher than #2 on my list of greatest courses.

Huck,

I was under the impression that you needed no invitation to CPC.  I hear that you are so well known and respected by the staff and caddy corp, that you're considered as a member emeritus.  Perhaps you can help me some day to join the group of great caddies out there.  What is the average tenure for these guys, 25 years?

I did play SH from the middle tees.  Don't you remember counting my money after I wrapped my 5-iron around your neck on Ben's Porch?  And don't think I wasn't tempted to repeat it at Stevinson.

MikeH,

You are falling for the "awshucks, I am a just a pawn in the game of life" act.  Word has it that Dick Youngscap (sp) is sending his G550 to pick up Huck and his companion at SJC, and that upon hearing of Tom's visit to the site, C & C also requested to be picked-up (I think that Mr. Youngscap told Bill and Ben that they can come, but on their own dime).

As an aside, Mr. Huntley failed to mention on his thread regarding statutory limits to non-member access to private clubs, that a special category or designation was written in deference to Mr. Huckaby by the courts.  In effect, the clubs can either accrue the comped green fees, hospitality, meals and drinks and apply them at year-end as credits to the 15% limit on a 3 for 1 basis.  Alternatively, the paper costs of his visit can be reconciled to the club's goodwill or prestige accounts, recognizing how the visit adds significantly to the club's assets.  This does not necessarily follow GAP, but I understand that there is an arcane Huckaby clause buried in the code.
 

[THuckaby2]

Oh man... Lou that was brilliant.  You too, Mike.  It has to be a very rare occasion but I am relatively speechless.

Don't think I don't know my role in this summer's trip though.  To date I've used the words "court jester", "gentleman's gentleman" and "chauffer", and sang the words to the Sesame Street song "one of these things is not like the other"....

But as for the greatness of Sand Hills, I am very sincere in saying I did find it very doable and great fun from the middle tees.

 

[Mike Hendren]

 In effect, the clubs can either accrue the comped green fees, hospitality, meals and drinks and apply them at year-end as credits to the 15% limit on a 3 for 1 basis.  Alternatively, the paper costs of his visit can be reconciled to the club's goodwill or prestige accounts, recognizing how the visit adds significantly to the club's assets.  This does not necessarily follow GAP, but I understand that there is an arcane Huckaby clause buried in the code.
 

Alas, it's the 80's all over again.

Mike

[Alex_Wyatt]

I just want to thank those hardy souls who have in whatever small way attempted to agree with some of what I am suggesting.  I will certainly think twice, though, before I blaspheme again.

[THuckaby2]

Alex:

It's not blasphemy.  I believe I've tried very hard to see your point of view, and have left it at "to each his own" each time.

I just don't get what you see as weaknesses at Sand Hills... and also really don't get what you see as disqualifications from greatness.  You do understand that the great UK links also have plenty of raised approaches and/or skyline greens, right?  So I just gather that you think there are too many at SH, and that this makes the course repetitive enough to disqualify it from greatness.

Did I at least get that correct?

The problem is I don't agree with it.  Each of the raised greens at Sand Hills is distinctly different from the others.  i don't see any repetition at all.  Each is also at the end of a damn great golf hole, so even if they were repetitive, well.. I could live with it!

Oh well.  Like I say, to each his own.  And while I can understand you feeling a bit beaten down, do also understand that it's actually a very small group that would call Sand Hills the best anything.  Most do think it's a great golf course, but few put it to the absolute top.  You just had the misfortune of being somewhat ganged up on by a few of us who do.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

No, Tom..

I think Alex was rightly asked which greens he saw as indicative of this problem and he never really provided details.

Blanket assertions (particularly without substantive evidence) often get challenged here, as they should.

Of course, one wishes that his hero's blanket assertions were as effectively and routinely challenged, as well.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

You are correct, sir.  Well said.
All of it.

TH

[Alex_Wyatt]

I didn't say it wasn't great. It is unequivocally great.

I did say it wasn't greatEST. Get your stories straight, fellas.

[PThomas]

Lou -- I can personally testify to your fine sportsmanship after your singles match with Huck

[THuckaby2]

No, Alex - I believe I got that correct also.  Read my words.

I do remain interested in your specific critiques.  That is, an answer to the question Mike posed long ago.  

Or alternatively, an answer to the summation I just wrote in my last post directed to you.  Did I get your criticisms/reasonsing correct?  If so, can you understand my disagreement?

None of this need be so adversarial.  But Mike's right:  blanket assertions do rarely go unchallenged here, if people disagree with them.

TH

[Alex_Wyatt]

Gene, in the interest of debate, do  you (or anybody else for that matter) have photos of each hole taken from the approach shot location or tee if its a par 3? Let's go through them.  I would love to find out that my recollection is not correct.

[THuckaby2]

Alex, that would be very cool, if only to see the pics! And it is also entirely possible that my recollection is incorrect also.  It has been three years since I've been there.

Odds are someone here has a pic of every single green.  Lots of pics have been posted.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Well, Dr. Gene disagreed re 1, 2, 4, 7, 11 and 13.

The BEST shot might not be a runner, but it certainly can be done on each, and MUST be done down-wind.  

I believe he'd know.

 

[THuckaby2]

Shiv:

Per Gene:

"You can run the ball up on every hole IF YOU CHOOSE TO with the exception of 17.

Every hole is designed to receive a bump and run type shot because if you're downwind you have no other choice.  

Even your putter needs to be used at times for an approach!"

That's from page 4 of this thread.  I'd agree with him.

The point is the option is there on each - even 4 and 13 - and in certain winds is the best shot.  As you know, the wind does tend to blow there.  Just a little.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Shivas:

Agreed.  

I guess I just take issue with calling any of these holes "fly or die".  To me that means hazard or bunker to be carried, absolutely no choice.  That is certainly not the case at any hole at Sand Hills with the exception of 17, which is a short (and great) hole anyway.

But yes, on each of these holes, the percentage play for the better, stronger player (absent down-wind) is to carry the upslopes.  But from long distance - as us mortals are likely gonna have on several of those holes, playing from the tips - well it's nice to know we can bounce it up... that there is nothing preventing us from doing so.  

TH

[Lester George]

Gents,

Good discussion.  Some good points, unfortunately it's hard to say greatest without alot of definition.  Is it the greatest? No.  For whatever reason you find.  However, for my money, the list of better is very, very short.  Cheers to Bill and Ben.

LG

[ed_getka]

I don't know if SH is the greatest course, but it is my favorite. My top 3 are in the same order as the "court jester". SH gets the nod over Cypress and NGLA, for non-architectural reasons. I love being away from "civilization" and no golf course feels further away than SH. I also like the feeling of being accepted/belonging at SH (even though I don't), which I most definitely do not at NGLA or Cypress. Certainly the people are nice and accomodating at CPC and NGLA, but I am always conscious of being an outsider.
    I will say that Sand Hills has the least less than great holes of the 3 courses. As a matter of fact the worse things I can think of at SH are that #13 and #17 are essentially the same hole in different lengths (although #17 originally had a different tee angle). The other point would be having #7 and #8 be back to back short par 4's. Both are driveable, but the green complexes are asking you to do different things, which are good things, but I think back to back interrupts the flow a tad.
    Someone else who played there felt #9 was a weak link and was just filler to get you back to Ben's porch, but I didn't find that to be the case at all.
    I can't wait for the end of June so I can hear tales of the epic gathering.

[Lou_Duran]

Perhaps GD should replace its tradition category with one that captures "does it feel like I am at home".  Most courses in Nebraska would jump 20 spots as it is has the friendliest, nicest people I have ever encountered.  At what top club anywhere would the kitchen staff invite you into the kitchen at dawn and show you to the coffee machine?  Where would the cart attendant respond to your question about going out on the course around 6:00 a.m. for some pictures with another question, "May I load your clubs on in case you want to hit a few shots?".

Or where would the pro shop staff after it is dark and the course is closed, help you change a tire and then make arrangements the following morning to have it inspected and replaced while we're out playing golf?

There are many intangibles at Sand Hills and Wild Horse which probably give both a few "unearned" points on the rating.  But that is probably true of many courses where exclusivity is a big thing, and at least, the Nebraska clubs are awarded these for much more admirable reasons.

Ed, isn't #17 a redanesque par 3?  The one where the story goes that Bill Coore was standing near the back tee facing the eventual green site, thinking out loud that this was a great orientation for a hole, and Ben Crenshaw responded that it sure was while looking 90* the other way?

[Tony Weiler]

I was just reading thru this old thread and hope to someday play there.  Only a 7 hour drive for me.    

[archie_struthers]

 


Are we worried that Sand Hills might one day be swallowed up by world around it , like Brigadoon..... no worries , mates , the roots are deep and strong   ....I kind of had that feeling at Portrush , as I've noted before


It is a fabulous , beguiling place ...the tenth hole is one of my all time favorites in golf   ,  just driving up to it is rather exciting , as discovering Pine Valley at  the end of a seeming dead end street , or the very interesting entrance at Lost Dunes in Michigan ,  a very interesting venue.

Sans Hills is pure , but it's really hard to say any one golf course is the best ,  after playing Shinnecock one fall day I thought the golf couldn't have been better , and then I went to Ireland and played Royal County Down.....


who's the best looking girl in the world .....good luck ....it's the same with golf courses ,  but Sand Hills is mighty special @

[Jerry Kluger]

I certainly think it is the most significant course built in the US since WW II.  To me, it is the reason that so many other great courses were built in the manner in which they were.  It gave a perspective to golf course architecture which was missing until then. Of course there was strategy designed into courses but visual appeal was such a significant factor that it often overcame strategy.  RTJ certainly built some fine courses as did Pete Dye but nothing that comes close to SH.  The obvious courses such as Bandon can be attributed to the vision of SH but look at others like Galloway or for that matter, Whistling Straits.  SH was a vision of Dick Youngscap that gave C & C the opportunity to make a significant step forward in GCA and we owe them a debt of gratitude. 

[George Pazin]

I certainly think it is the most significant course built in the US since WW II.  To me, it is the reason that so many other great courses were built in the manner in which they were.  It gave a perspective to golf course architecture which was missing until then. Of course there was strategy designed into courses but visual appeal was such a significant factor that it often overcame strategy.  RTJ certainly built some fine courses as did Pete Dye but nothing that comes close to SH.  The obvious courses such as Bandon can be attributed to the vision of SH but look at others like Galloway or for that matter, Whistling Straits.  SH was a vision of Dick Youngscap that gave C & C the opportunity to make a significant step forward in GCA and we owe them a debt of gratitude. 

This is one deep thought, and I think it's worthy of a new thread. Hopefully Jerry concurs.