John LaFoy

[Mike Hendren]

Very few mentions of this architect here.   After my nice visit to Johnson City CC (Tillinghast 9 plus farmers 9 four years later) I'm guessing his modifications in 1986 were substantial as they pertained to green surrounds and bunkering.  Also, while I haven't been to Jackson (TN) CC in years, I understand he did work there which from the aerial appears to have significantly altered what I'm fairly confident (though the club can't verify) was vintage Langford architecture. 

Any comments on those two courses or LaFoy's work in general?

Mike

[hhuffines]

Mike,

I have worked with Mr. Lafoy on our course in Raleigh, NC and found him to be a great gentleman and a pleasure to work with.  4 years later, despite some bad weather delays and a mad membership, our course is on the verge of being in its best shape in decades.

There are several threads on him, some with photos, but not of his work.  He tends to favor heavily mounded and elevated greensites, at least from what I have seen-several renovations and two of his originals are here.

He redid So. Pines and "golf's most beloved guest" seems to enjoy it very much.  He had a career with George Cobb and worked at Augusta National.

Hope youre game is solid!

Hart

[John Moore II]

HH-which LaFoy course are you at in Raleigh?
I can agree with most of those things. I would say that he designs good, but not necessarily great golf courses. The only course I can recall to have played that he designed was The Neuse in Raleigh. It was a nice course, with great conditioning, but it was not what I would consided great or ground breaking from an architectural standpoint.

[hhuffines]

JKM,

I play at Carolina here in Raleigh.  Its not a LaFoy course per se but he has been our architect for the past 20 years and he renovated it in 2004.  We can't confirm our original designer - course was built in 1910.  Nothing ground breaking there for sure.

He did Devils Ridge in Holly Springs/Apex and it is very much like the Neuse.
I believe he also gets some credit for Linville Ridge.

[Tony_Chapman]

Michael -- Mr. LaFoy came to Nebraska about 10 years ago and left us with Quarry Oaks. Unfortunately, I haven't played it. However, it's on a very dramatic up and down site over looking the Platte River. Sorry I can't give you more....


The 14th


Aerial

http://www.quarryoaks.com/

[RJ_Daley]

Tony, I've played QO twice.  It has some pretty good holes, and some clinkers IMHO.  The routing is tough to walk.  I gave into a cart both times for the second 9.  I wonder if his routing might not have been better... but it is a tough piece of ground to route with very steep contours.

Pete Galea had something to do with him, but I don't think that project ever got done.

I just looked at another of his courses just south of Lexington KY.  The Bull or some such name.  It looked very commercial.   

He was a past ASGCA Prez.

[Gary Daughters]

John dropped in on the treehouse about a year ago for some enlightening dialogue, but unfortunately couldn't be persuaded to stick around.  Maybe he'll visit us again.

John is a real gentleman, in my estimation a down to earth Rennaissance man.   As was mentioned he spent quite a lot of time at Augusta National with George Cobb.

[A.G._Crockett]

I have played Croasdaile CC (George Cobb) many times both before and after Lafoy renovated the course.  His work was excellent; improved drainage, bunkering, green contours, and just the overall look of an already good routing.

The newer of the two courses at Stone Mountain here in Atlanta, Lakemont, is also his.  IMO, he was given a very marginal piece of ground, certainly relative to the original course, and asked to shoehorn in 18 holes.  The first hole around the lakeshore is a good example, for those of you that have played.  That piece of ground probably shouldn't be a golf hole at all, but turns out to be playable, if not outstanding.

[Gary Daughters]

A.G.,

Very nice call on your part.  When I play #1 at Lakemont I invariably think to myself.. this is no place for a golf hole.  And usually it's a riot.

Among other fine holes on that nine "was" the stellar short par 4 #6, since converted, inexplicably,  to a 3.  Maybe they did it to speed things along as a lot of golfers were trying to drive that green (with disastrous consequences 95% of the time).

[Bill Gayne]

Kiskiack in Williamsburg, Virginia is a lot of fun. It's short by modern standards at less than 6700 yards from the back tees but I don't play from the tips. It's one of the Traditional Club courses here locally and of the four that they manage it's my favorite. This includes the two Strantz courses.

http://www.traditionalclubs.com/view.asp?id=360&page=9331

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael,

Not to be rude, but the changes I've seen of his at Southern Pines, as well as his newer nine at Stone Mountain...ummm...

Well, I'm trying to be a kinder and gentler poster, so I'll leave it at that.   

No "bullying" for me! 

[Gary Daughters]

I'm not sure that tossing out veiled criticism without substantiation makes you a kinder, gentler poster.  Please offer specifics.  I will be happy to debate the merits of Stone Mountain.

[Mike_Cirba]

Gary,

I really like most of the older 18 holes by RTJ Sr. at Stone Mountain.

If you can play the first 3 or so hole of the Lakemont nine without belly-laughing, you are a better man than I am.

Ooops...back to the 12 step program   

[Gary Daughters]

It must be me who needs 12 step, because #1 thru #3 are among my favorite holes out there.  #1 is undeniably quirky and borderline silly. (Umm, what is a Biarritz green but silly?)  So if you hear me belly laughing, it's because I am having fun. 

Still awaiting specifics, but in the interest of your recovery I'll certainly give you a pass.   

[Michael Whitaker]

John LaFoy lives in Greenville, SC and is a great guy. He worked with George Cobb until Mr. Cobb's death. His first job with Mr. Cobb was work on ANGC.

I had the pleasure of working with Mr. LaFoy on the Clemson University Practice Center... of which he designed and oversaw the construction for no charge.

Here is a list of Mr. LaFoy's courses (according to WorldGolf.com):

Cape Haze Links at Rotonda Golf & Country Club - Semi-Private in Rotonda West
Crescent Golf Club - Semi-Private in Salisbury
Devils Ridge Golf Club - Semi-Private in Holly Springs
Fox Creek Golf Club - Public in Smyrna
Glenmoore Country Club - Private in Keswick
Golden Eagle at Tides Inn, The - Resort in Irvington
Hillside/Valleyside at Valley Hill Country Club - Private in Huntsville
Kiskiack Golf Club - Semi-Private in Williamsburg
Lakemont at Stone Mountain Golf Course - Public in Stone Mountain
Lakeside/Hillside at Valley Hill Country Club - Private in Huntsville
Lane Tree Golf Club - Semi-Private in Goldsboro
Moors Golf & Lodging, The - Public in Milton
Neuse Golf Club, The - Semi-Private in Clayton
North/East at Athens Country Club - Private in Athens
Peachtree Family Golf Center - Public in Duluth
Pohick Bay Golf Course - Public in Lorton
Quarry Oaks Golf Club - Public in Ashland
Surf Golf & Beach Club - Semi-Private in North Myrtle Beach
Valleyside/Lakeside at Valley Hill Country Club - Private in Huntsville
Vestavia Country Club in Vestavia Hills
Wildwood Green Golf Course - Semi-Private in Raleigh
Windtree Golf Course - Public in Mount Juliet

[Sean_A]

I've mentioned it before, but I think Wildwood Green in Raleigh is a good course minus the oob/housing issues which are not in the control of the archie.  There are about 5 very good holes and some funky ones. 

I saw some of the changes at Southern Pines, while generally not drastic, I didn't think they were bad, just not in keeping with Ross.  It would seem that Lafoy did some framing of greens and altered a some greens. 

Now for the bad news, I don't know if Lafoy was involved with Bald Head, but that place is a shocker.  For the most part it is just a boring golf course.  Its a pity, because a really good course would put Bald Head Island on the map of a great destination because its a cool island.

Ciao

[John Moore II]

MPC-What were the major redesigns he did to Southern Pines? I knew he did some things, but I do not know what he did. Thanks.

[Tim Copeland]

John LaFoy is Class A

He would have been a good designer for The Walker Course at Clemson instead of the Land Planner that was hired....but........that is past news.

LaFoy did come to Walker at my request when I was there to put a stamp of approval on what we had planned for improvements.  He was nothing but class even though it was obvious he would have loved to have had the chance to design at his alma mater.

He designed the Clemson Golf Team Practice facility....right??  Not the "Driving range" at Walker.  We redid the Driving range even though we had no room to make any improvements because of the Catfish farms at the end of the range.

I have talked to John a few times since our tour of The Walker Course.  He has always made time and been very helpful.  I would love to build one of his courses.

[A.G._Crockett]

John LaFoy is Class A

He would have been a good designer for The Walker Course at Clemson instead of the Land Planner that was hired....but........that is past news.

LaFoy did come to Walker at my request when I was there to put a stamp of approval on what we had planned for improvements.  He was nothing but class even though it was obvious he would have loved to have had the chance to design at his alma mater.

He designed the Clemson Golf Team Practice facility....right??  Not the "Driving range" at Walker.  We redid the Driving range even though we had no room to make any improvements because of the Catfish farms at the end of the range.

I have talked to John a few times since our tour of The Walker Course.  He has always made time and been very helpful.  I would love to build one of his courses.

Tim,
I've already indicated that I like John LaFoy's work, but that is a pretty tough comment in your opening sentence.  I've played the Walker Course, along with several others done by that same GCA, and wonder what your objection is?  I thoroughly enjoyed the Walker Course; what did I miss?

[Tim Copeland]

Tim,
I've already indicated that I like John LaFoy's work, but that is a pretty tough comment in your opening sentence.  I've played the Walker Course, along with several others done by that same GCA, and wonder what your objection is?  I thoroughly enjoyed the Walker Course; what did I miss?

My point is simply that a Clemson graduate will most likely always be a golf course superintendent there and it is a shame that LaFoy was not considered to design it.  The construction was handled by a development firm out of Columbia and the "architect" for Walker was picked for reasons other than ability....if you want to know more I will have to refer you to my signature.

[Michael Whitaker]

John LaFoy is Class A

He would have been a good designer for The Walker Course at Clemson instead of the Land Planner that was hired....but........that is past news.

LaFoy did come to Walker at my request when I was there to put a stamp of approval on what we had planned for improvements.  He was nothing but class even though it was obvious he would have loved to have had the chance to design at his alma mater.

He designed the Clemson Golf Team Practice facility....right??  Not the "Driving range" at Walker.  We redid the Driving range even though we had no room to make any improvements because of the Catfish farms at the end of the range.

I have talked to John a few times since our tour of The Walker Course.  He has always made time and been very helpful.  I would love to build one of his courses.

Tim - John designed the new practice facility that was built for the golf team, primarily funded by the Tiger Golf Gathering. He did a great job and personally made sure the construction was first class and exactly as he intended it to be done. It is one fine facility.

When were you at The Walker Course?

Like A.G., I too like The Walker Course very much. There are a good number of excellent holes there... many that offer unique and interesting design features. If Mr. DeVictor is a "land planner" I wish there were more "land planners" out there instead of some of the cookie-cutter architects that crank out the same holes over and over again.

[Mike Bowline]

John LaFoy recently impressed me with a series of e-mails we exchanged. I sent him (and a few other architects, too) a lenghty e-mail asking his advice on how I could best enter the golf course architecture field, utilizing my civil engineering and construction management background.

He replied initially with an amazing, long, well-thought-out, reflective e-mail response that pulled no punches but also was full of sage advice and deep insights. It was easily 200 words and not doubt took him at least an hour to write. And this to a total stranger asking him for advice!

I will never forget the time he invested in educating me about the golf course architecture profession and how best to "break in".

[A.G._Crockett]

Tim,
I've already indicated that I like John LaFoy's work, but that is a pretty tough comment in your opening sentence.  I've played the Walker Course, along with several others done by that same GCA, and wonder what your objection is?  I thoroughly enjoyed the Walker Course; what did I miss?

My point is simply that a Clemson graduate will most likely always be a golf course superintendent there and it is a shame that LaFoy was not considered to design it.  The construction was handled by a development firm out of Columbia and the "architect" for Walker was picked for reasons other than ability....if you want to know more I will have to refer you to my signature.

Tim,
I'm still not sure what you mean, especially in the last line about your signature, but in any case I have no doubt that John Lafoy would have done a great job at Clemson.  I've got to say, though, that I would rate the work of Lafoy and DeVictor as reasonably comparable; certainly DeVictor doesn't suffer in the comparison too badly, and he did a nice job at Clemson by any reasonable standard, didn't he?

You may very well have knowledge that I don't about how D.J. DeVictor got the job at the Walker Course, since I have no idea whatsoever what went into that.  But I think you do DeVictor a great disservice here by implying  that he lacks credentials or ability as an architect; he lacks neither.  You even wrote the word architect in quotation marks when you described DeVictor, as if that is not his profession, which it has been for many years now with some success.  I don't know if you've played any of his other courses, either new designs or redesigns, but he has done quality work a number of places.  Don't know where you are located, but I'll be happy to send you some recommendations.  In the meantime, taking cheap shots is a bit unfair.

[Tim Copeland]

Tim - John designed the new practice facility that was built for the golf team, primarily funded by the Tiger Golf Gathering. He did a great job and personally made sure the construction was first class and exactly as he intended it to be done. It is one fine facility.

When were you at The Walker Course?

Like A.G., I too like The Walker Course very much. There are a good number of excellent holes there... many that offer unique and interesting design features. If Mr. DeVictor is a "land planner" I wish there were more "land planners" out there instead of some of the cookie-cutter architects that crank out the same holes over and over again.

I was at Walker from April '95 till June of '99.  I was a second assistant for the grow in originally then after the supt. was fired I became the Project Manager for Capital Improvements.  The Golf Course was built for 2.3 mil in 95 and the total spent on the development of golf course, conference center and Hotel was 20 mil.  After seeing the budget decreased the plan for the golf course was not altered to account for the drainage that could not be afforded because of the  the lack of funding  I solicited money from alumni and members and whomever I could get to stand still long enough to listen to fund rip-rap, drainage, hydro seeding and prep work for slopes that were cut out of Orange clay that could have been rerouted. There is much more inside info that will stay with me.  The routing and course conditions now are good I hear.  I had a playing interview for a job there.....I pointed out the design flaws and drainage issues that are still there.  I got the job because if you know where to look the design does not "fit".  But yes...I will give you that the finishing holes are spectacular.....God did not screw those up.

Penley and the Golf team did not practice there for a long time.....maybe they do now.  But only he can tell you why...........

I saw the original plans of the "architect"......LUI's superintendent and shapers did a good job of building and reworking the original thoughts and plans....like I said....refer to my signature.  I was there and there is much more to tell......

[Tim Copeland]

Tim,
I've already indicated that I like John LaFoy's work, but that is a pretty tough comment in your opening sentence.  I've played the Walker Course, along with several others done by that same GCA, and wonder what your objection is?  I thoroughly enjoyed the Walker Course; what did I miss?

My point is simply that a Clemson graduate will most likely always be a golf course superintendent there and it is a shame that LaFoy was not considered to design it.  The construction was handled by a development firm out of Columbia and the "architect" for Walker was picked for reasons other than ability....if you want to know more I will have to refer you to my signature.

Tim,
I'm still not sure what you mean, especially in the last line about your signature, but in any case I have no doubt that John Lafoy would have done a great job at Clemson.  I've got to say, though, that I would rate the work of Lafoy and DeVictor as reasonably comparable; certainly DeVictor doesn't suffer in the comparison too badly, and he did a nice job at Clemson by any reasonable standard, didn't he?

You may very well have knowledge that I don't about how D.J. DeVictor got the job at the Walker Course, since I have no idea whatsoever what went into that.  But I think you do DeVictor a great disservice here by implying  that he lacks credentials or ability as an architect; he lacks neither.  You even wrote the word architect in quotation marks when you described DeVictor, as if that is not his profession, which it has been for many years now with some success.  I don't know if you've played any of his other courses, either new designs or redesigns, but he has done quality work a number of places.  Don't know where you are located, but I'll be happy to send you some recommendations.  In the meantime, taking cheap shots is a bit unfair.

Fine...we will agree to disagree.

Just discussing and letting my thoughts be known.

My point was...and remains to be....a Clemson graduate is the Superintendent there and will always be.....as it should be.

A golf course is/was built on Clemson land and a Clemson graduate that is an architect....and a dang fine one is not hired.  It is a disservice.  That was my original statement.......and I stand by that.

There are reasons for everything....and this has a reason also.