David Moriarty's excellent The Missing Faces of Merion is now posted under IMO

[Rich Goodale]

Believe whatever you wish those words to mean, David, but others will always honestly disagree.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark

Do you not agree that my 1907 printing of Websters would be more authoritative as to contemporaneous usage than today's OED?

PS--My 2,300+ page Webster's has only 5 alternative definitions for "lay out" one of which is:

"To prepare for burial"

Maybe we should "lay out" all these Merion threads and get back to the discussion of golf course architecture.......

Rich

No. Two reasons:
1. Dictionary entries are based on varying standards. Definitions in your Webster's reflect mainstream word usages not necessarily of 1907, but perhaps word usages that began at least X years prior.  Furthermore, didn't the usage in question date to 1916?  Not saying it happened this way, but the Moriarty use of "lay out" might have come into currency after, say, 1902 and your dictionary wouldn't reflect that.  But who knows? Maybe your edition is as loose with words as the atrocious 3rd of Webster's.

2. And point #1 is a canard anyway.  OED includes word etymologies. It contains multiple passages for each word usage.  So OED's 500 or so definitions for "lay," which includes 13 or so for "lay out," includes the first known usage of each.

Some could argue the OED's relative stringency. Certainly the 2nd ed, which is what I have.

A far more useful approach I think is to comb through newspapers of the time seeking the usage of the term in a golf context.

At the end of the day, a term like "lay out," in the critical usage put forth in Moriarty's opinion piece, will not lend itself to a clean definition.  It could mean what both sides of this argument claim.  It doesn't necessarily mean one or the other, from my reading.  All I'm saying is that Moriarty's claim is supported by the contemporaneous use of the term.

David, that reference you cite does support your claim.

I wouldn't have thought of your interpretation of the usage in the cited passage before you brought it up, but now that you have, all I'm saying is you're not necessarily wrong. You could be right.

By the way, I haven't read these threads really at all so I don't know if this has been covered, and I don't have your passage in front of my, but one definition of "lay out" -- working off memory here, sorry -- I recall is something like, "apportion land for a purpose."  So another usage could involve, somehow, getting the right property dimensions.

Rich, one last point: if an etymological-semantic discussion doesn't kill this discussion, I have in mind the world's worst cocktail party, with no television in the next room...

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Mark.  Points taken.  But why, oh why am I reminded of Humpty Dumpty?

[Mark Bourgeois]

When his men laid out Humpty Dumpty, does that mean the planning of the regicide or the act?

[Rich Goodale]

Whichever they chose it to mean, of course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Nice veer into a deconstructionist interpretation. I hope they laid him out in a closed casket, don't you?

[Mike_Cirba]

Rich/Mark/David/Pat/Jeff, et.al....

This 1914 article oughtta clear things up...

[Patrick_Mucci]

MPC,

If newspaper headlines are to be your guide, the "Daily News" and "New York Post" have to be amongst the best.

[Jeff_Brauer]

First time I have heard the phrase "Golf Links Arhictect."

Maybe Mike Young will change from Golf architecturalist.

[Mike_Cirba]

From Joe Bausch;

"Sure, you can mention I found this article and it is just an example 
of another author and how "lay out" and "laid out" was used around 
that time.  It was one of many others that I haven't looked at very 
closely.  Tonight I can gather up all 30 or so of them from around 
1910 to 1915 and send them along.  I haven't looked at many others to 
see if there is variation in these newspapers as to what 'lay out' 
means."

[Lou_Duran]

A course profile of Merion-E would be very helpful.  Google Maps doesn't show the quarry clearly.  Does it come to play primarily on #16 green and #17?  Those who see Macdonald's footprint on the course could then point to the physical evidence to support their position.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

A course profile of Merion-E would be very helpful.  Google Maps doesn't show the quarry clearly.  Does it come to play primarily on #16 green and #17?  Those who see Macdonald's footprint on the course could then point to the physical evidence to support their position.   

Lou,

Charles Blair MacDonald declared that the 3rd hole was a REDAN.
Lesley and Findlay agreed.
So did Robert Trent Jones and Tom Doak.

Is that a substantive enough footprint ?
Is that enough physical evidence ?

The 10th was an ALPS
If David or someone else could post pictures of the highly constructed hole that might help you.

Tillinghast refers to the 15th as an EDEN

REDAN, ALPS and EDEN.

Do those names ring a MacDonald like bell ?

[JESII]

Pat,

DID CBM need to be on site to build all half-assed REDAN's in the U.S. prior to 1912?

I say half-assed because the only characteristic of the more typical REDAN that follows to Merion is a large bunker guarding the low inside corner...no green surface similarities or approach similarities...

[DMoriarty]

Mike, how many times do you post each post,  5?  10?   

I think you need to start 2 or 3 more threads. 

It seems you think if you post the same thing over and over again it becomes true.  You are wasting our time. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

DID CBM need to be on site to build all half-assed REDAN's in the U.S. prior to 1912?

I say half-assed because the only characteristic of the more typical REDAN that follows to Merion is a large bunker guarding the low inside corner...no green surface similarities or approach similarities...

JES II,

Perhaps you and others are viewing template holes solely in their "conceptually perfect" form as opposed to their varied form.

Going back to your days in biology class, think of the categorization of holes in the context of "phylum".

As to variations on the general theme, when it comes to golf holes, the Eden, Short, Road, Sahara and others all have variations, many, largely dependent upon the land form upon which they're "layed out" 

So don't confine your understanding to a solitary, absolute model, as MPC does.

[wsmorrison]

Pat, the names of some of the holes at Shinnecock Hills GC at one time included:

Crater
Plateau
Knoll

These predate Macdonald's redesign work and are from a scorecard dated 1896.  Should we ring the Macdonald bell or should we ring the Davis bell?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

We're discussing Merion, not Shinnecock.

When David writes a white paper on Shinnecock we can discuss that at that time.  In the meantime, let's confine the discussion to Merion.

By the way, was/is there a REDAN at Shinnecock ?

Who designed it ?

[wsmorrison]

That was an expectedly lame response.

I'm sure we will all be interested in David's essays that follow.

Neither Davis or Dunn designed a Redan hole.  As you are well aware, Macdonald designed a Redan, his 14th hole.  The green was a few feet below the Macdonald tee (still in use today).  As you may not know, or believe, Flynn redesigned the entire golf course.  You may recall that the club wanted to keep 18 holes in play during the complete remodel (using some of the Davis/Dunn holes in addition to the Macdonald holes).  So it makes sense that some of  the general locations for greens on the current holes 2,3,4,7 and 9 were utilized (some with varying hole corridors).  Yet these holes were completely remodeled including greens along with every bunker on the course, all tees (except 7) and every green on the other 13 completely new holes on previously unused land. 

Included in the complete redesign was a brand new green and bunker scheme for the current 7th hole, which is on the same ground as Macdonald's 14th.  The Flynn tee is not currently in use but should be resurrected while retaining the Macdonald tee for variety and historical significance.  Flynn's green is built well above the level of Macdonald's green which sat naturally on a right to left slope on grade.  Like Flynn's Redan-like hole at Philadelphia Country Club (7th) and Huntingdon Valley Country Club (3rd), the 7th at Shinnecock Hills requires an aerial approach.  The opening to these greens are very narrow and situated on steep slopes. 

Merion's 3rd green may be called a Redan by Lesley, Findlay, Jones, Doak, Moriarty, MacWood and Mucci.  However, it merely resembles one in the most basic form.  In that regard, hundreds of holes can partially resemble a Redan but have none of the play characteristics.  An example of this is the 11th at Philadelphia country Club.  Merion's 3rd hole is an aerial approach only to an elevated green.  The green angles slightly left to right, but the green is 48 yards deep along the line of play.  The high point is back left, the low point is front left.  Overall, the rear of the green is higher than the front.

[Rich Goodale]

Wayne

Stop using FACTS!  Pat will become confused!

RFG

[wsmorrison]

RFG,

You mean more confused, right?   

WSM

[JESII]

Wayne,

The ground approach to HVCC's REDAN is pretty doable...moreso than the others you mentioned I guess...

[wsmorrison]

Yes, Jim.  I agree with you.  I heard the course set up for the Bailey Cup was IDEAL.  Did you play?  Tom Paul is supposed to make a post on the course and its maintenance meld.  Scott was very pleased with the results.  Good thing it was played before all this rain, 'cause even that great set up would be affected by all this rain.  I bet it bounces back pretty quickly being so dry coming into this deluge.

Poor Sean Arble.  In town and being stymied by the rain.  I hope his Saturday and Sunday are enjoyable!

[JESII]

Haven't played since Haloween...too busy figuring out who designed Merion...

Reports are that the course is the best it has ever been this early in the year. Anxious to hear Tom's report.

Scott usually likes to pace himself in the spring so the course can really shine in the heat and humidity of the summer minths. The weather this spring has been ideal for his goals and a couple of the guys that did play on Wednesday told me the course was incredible.

[Peter Pallotta]

JES asked:

"Did CBM need to be on site to build all half-assed REDAN's in the U.S. prior to 1912?"

Patrick answered by suggesting that JES go back to his days in biology class and think of the categorization of holes in the context of "phylum".

Hmm.

It seems to me that JES' question still stands. I still don't understand why we're being asked to assume that CBM needed to be involved in Merion in anything more than an advisory role.

For goodness sakes, Macdonald was not the only man back then who understood the principles of great golf holes/architecture -- of that I am convinced.

In fact, I'd opine that there were a number of people who understood and appreciated those principles better and more comprehensively than Macdonald did.

Peter

[Rich Goodale]

JES asked:


In fact, I'd opine that there were a number of people who understood and appreciated those principles better and more comprehensively than Macdonald did.

Peter

Dangerous things to say, Peter, even though they are probably uncontestably true......

Rich