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Mike_Cirba

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2008, 02:39:52 PM »
Brent,

Have you been to Merion, Oakmont, or Riviera?

Brent Hutto

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2008, 02:44:11 PM »
Mike,

No but of course I would seriously entertain an invitation to any of those courses, any time.

Which of my "myths" in particular do you feel they vindicate?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2008, 02:45:13 PM »
That increased width increases strategic options.

It all about the greens John!

I life after the age of 10 we largely make our own decisions. Do you want Ree Jones, Tom Doak or your Brother to make your decisions for you?

Yes, I want architects to design holes that are best played a given way on any given day.  I am not interested in playing a game where the most skilled shot is not the best.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2008, 02:45:51 PM »
Brent,

I think they are examples of great architecture not on sandy, windy linksland.
 

Rick_Noyes

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2008, 02:47:29 PM »
Adam,

I would agree with you difficulty=greatness.  People play a resort course by (insert name of "famous" architect) and shoot a higher score than on their home course.  Well it must be great, right?  Conversly, I heard a guy say, "I'm not going to pay $125 to shoot 125".

My favorite, supplied by the marketers, "Nominated for best course in....."  All you have to do to nominate is send in a form or letter and you're nominated.  The implication of greatness is there, but doesn't always hold true.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2008, 02:48:23 PM »
John,

Could you describe what the most skilled shot might be?   Should there be intellectual, tactical component, or simply execution to a single defined point, sort of like hunting or bowling?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2008, 02:50:28 PM »
That anyone grows up dreaming of being a golf writer.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2008, 02:50:38 PM »
That increased width is about something other than making the course easier.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2008, 02:54:24 PM »
John,

Could you describe what the most skilled shot might be?   Should there be intellectual, tactical component, or simply execution to a single defined point, sort of like hunting or bowling?

Exactly like hunting.  I don't want the guy who randomly shoots into the woods to bag the best deer just because of a lucky shot.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2008, 03:33:05 PM »
As a practising gca, I still have to say its "The check is in the mail!" ::)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2008, 05:46:13 PM »
That there's no such thing as a misplaced bunker. 

Mike

This is an excellent shout.

Another top choice for me is that distance has ruined the game and/or courses.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2008, 10:48:41 PM »
10.  If you’d put enough rakes out there, players would rake the bunkers.
9.  Most golfers play by the rules and observe etiquette on the course.
8.  We can cut 20 heads from this irrigation design and get the same results.
7.  The NGF statistics say _________________________…
6.  You can make up for poor people skills in customer service with training and effort.
5.  If you’re gonna do it right, USGA greens are the only way to go.
4.  This land is so porous, it doesn’t need much drainage.
3.  A good golf course will draw players from a 100 mile radius.
2.  This course is great for players of all skill levels.
1.  This is the best piece of land I’ve ever had to work with.
Jim Thompson

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2008, 12:06:17 AM »
Lots of good fodder to pick apart.

Here's one I'm not sure has been touched.

Tour Pros make great designers.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2008, 12:19:28 AM »
Sportswriter AJ Liebling had a terrific boast:

"I can write better than anybody who can write faster, and I can write faster than anybody who can write better".

There has GOT to be some exact parallel to golf course architecture's biggest myth. There's just got to be....

Peter

Mark_F

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2008, 03:25:03 AM »
A golf course can't be short and challenging.

The size of the green should match the length of the approach shot.

A short par four cannot be more difficult than a long par four.


Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2008, 05:32:54 AM »
"Build them and they will come"

With a few exceptions (Bandon for example) this is a business plan that will often lead a course/club into a death spiral.

JC

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2008, 06:53:49 AM »
 8)  change is good
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2008, 07:29:10 AM »
Bigger + More = Better

A big budget will produce a great course.

A big name architect will produce a great course.


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2008, 07:38:48 AM »
Golf Course Architecture’s Biggest Myth

is that Clients are always right


Doug Ralston

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2008, 07:54:43 AM »
That anyone on GCA, or off it, could tell what the future will reveal about myths of golf architecture.

The future IS gonna surprise you! If you do not know that, you DO have a mythical insight into GCA.

Clue: All generations get some insight into past ideas and how wrong [or not] they where. NO generation gets to define their own myths, because history is too fickle to allow worthwhile prediction of it.

So? Have an idea; try it; see what happens.

Doug

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2008, 08:30:40 AM »

Doug

Like it;

So?

I have an idea;  Get rid of carts, cart tracks and electronic distance aids

Try it;  Yes why not.

See what happens; Indeed, bring back all walking courses

You may have a point

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2008, 10:05:10 AM »
History fickle?

Paging Dan King Paging Dr. King.

Whats surprising Doug, is that someone actually made a post more obtuse than mine.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Bowline

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2008, 10:08:00 AM »
I just wonder who ever said that difficulty = greatness to begin with?  Doesn't a myth have to be stated somewhere to become a myth?

I can't recall every reading that, or hearing it.

Difficulty can be a PART of greatness as some assess things... but the totality?  I've never heard that.

The whole original Ranking of courses was started by Golf Digest with their infamous "Americas's 50 Most Difficult Courses" (I think it was 50) . Somewhere along the process, the "Most Difficult Courses" at Golf Digest became "Best Courses" and the link between the two may have been cemented in people's minds forever.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2008, 10:13:01 AM »
the concept of strategy being considered by the average player.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re: Golf Course Architecture's Biggest Myth?
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2008, 10:43:54 AM »
the concept of strategy being considered by the average player.....

I think a lot of players have something they would describe as "strategy" in mind but it's almost never anything like what we talk about on this forum.

About 80% golfers think only about where they don't want to hit it. Put a water hazard or intimidating bunker in their line of sight and their only thought it "Don't hit it there".

Of the other 20%, maybe 80% of the remainder are capable of thinking about where's the best place to hit it "Hit it there" but can't take into account the results of a slightly missed shot.

So now we're down to about 1 golfer in 20 who can and does actually think about where they're going to play their next shot from "Hit it there OR miss it over there" and that's the beginning of real strategy.

And I'd say only a very small minority of those 1-in-20 actually think about tacking their way around a hole in the grand GCA Discussion Group style. To begin with, most of those 1-in-20 who can think strategically tend to be pretty good players and the strongest of them just play a point-to-point aerial game. No tacking needed. So we're left with a tiny fraction of a fraction, something less than 1% in my estimation, of all golfers who:

1) Have any interest in thinking about "Play this shot to here so I can play that shot to there"

2) Plus sufficient skill to actually do it often enough to matter

3) But not capable of blowing the ball over all the trouble and playing straight at their ultimate target most of the time