Can someone explain something to me about # 13 at ANGC ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why would they have a ball drop area ?

And why would they locate it in such a benign position, a position entirely contrary to the architectural presentation and the intended lines of play ?

[Tim_Cronin]

Probably to speed up play, given all the potential options with the meandering creek, especially when the pin placement is close to the creek.
Hey, why do you always leave a space between the end of the sentence and the question mark? (Just wondering.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Probably to speed up play, given all the potential options with the meandering creek, especially when the pin placement is close to the creek.
Hey, why do you always leave a space between the end of the sentence and the question mark? (Just wondering.)

Tim,

It took them FIVE hours in TWOSOMES !
Do you call that a concern with the speed of play ?

I thought ball drops were only to be implemented under the existance of certain circumstances..... where a drop is impractical or impossible

And, Yes, I always leave a space for my question marks.

It makes it easier for the reading impaired.

[Joe Hancock]

Could it be that the drop area somehow encourages the risk of going for it, by being benign?

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

Interesting question.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
I think you're right, there's no other good reason for it.

[JohnV]

There are no ball drops on #13.  There are drop zones.  The R&A won the naming convention in 2008.

The primary reason I can think of is that if there is a hole location and a point in the portion of the hazard where the line from the hole location to that point would result in no reasonable place to drop the drop zone would be required.  I think that if the hole was back right and a ball entered the hazard at the front left, the only place to drop might be in the woods or due to the nature of the lateral portion of the hazard might be quite a way back.   Similarly if the hole is at the front and a ball goes in the water near the rear of the green the place to drop would be in the back woods.  This can be especially true if the all crossed to the green side and then went into the hazard.

They obviously want to keep the hazard in front of the green marked as a water hazard, not a lateral and the ball drop makes that more possible.  Same thing with #11.

[Tim_Cronin]

Five hours is an hour too long, yes . (I'm going to try this space thingy too, my English teacher be damned !)
Do we know if the drop area is now mandatory ? Can't remember what Snedeker did .

[Jim_Kennedy]

John,
OK, there is another good reason for it 

[Pete_Pittock]

In addition, the drop zone remained in one spot for all four days. The Sunday hole location made the drop zone the best option. It may not have been the best option on other days.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Yours is a very good question and it raises a pretty big and interesting question about how and why "Tournament Committees" mark golf courses as they do to influence relief options.

Joe:

Your point is a very good one and probably very apropos about the 13th. I think the club is extremely aware of how much some seemingly inconsequential little things can influence the strategies of players that good. One great example is what Geoff Shackelford wrote some years ago about the strategic results in play when the club decided to raise the water level of Rae's Creek and really clean up the banks, perhaps just in an attempt to "prettify" things. That significantly shut down on players gambling on going for the green in two that year. Apparently the next year they resolved that problem or result.

JohnV:

As usual your rules explanations are very informative.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JVB,

If you look at an aerial of the green and the creek, I don't believe the configuration of both bear out your explanation.

There appears to be plenty of room in back and in front for a drop.

Where the hazard is a lateral, both sides can be used for the drop, negating a forced drop to one side.

[Adam_Messix]

Pat--

John's correct on this one.  Although it's not required or even recommended per the USGA/R&A, putting a drop zone in  where there is a yellow water hazard is a good idea.  Otherwise, given a particular hole location and point where the ball last cross the margin issues, you can end up dropping in some strange locations on 13, particularly if you go long. 

[Jed Peters]

You guys crack me up.

Bitching about pace of play in the final round of the Masters.

Hilarious.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat--

John's correct on this one.  Although it's not required or even recommended per the USGA/R&A, putting a drop zone in  where there is a yellow water hazard is a good idea.  Otherwise, given a particular hole location and point where the ball last cross the margin issues, you can end up dropping in some strange locations on 13, particularly if you go long. 

Having viewed the hole on Google Earth and in person, I don't see that.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

[JohnV]

Assume the hole is where I've shown it, which is near Sunday's location.  Assume a ball enters that hazard at the X.  The point where you would have to drop is in the trees.  Would the player want to drop in the trees or go back to where he played from?  If he chooses to go back, you get a nice long wait.  Even if he doesn't, he probably debates it.  If you put a drop zone out there somewhere the chances are very high that he will just go there and keep play moving.

If you move the hole to the front of the green, even more of the areas for relief might be in the trees.

[John_Cullum]

Two reasons for a drop zone:

1. In case there is a bad angle that will not allow adequate relief

2. In case there is question as to where the ball entered (which is very frequent, especially with a meandering creek)

Why is it where it is? I have no idea, I like the answer that it encourages the risk, but somehow I doubt that's the case

[Adam_Messix]

John and Pat--

That picture explains far better than any words could about the dropping situation behind 13 without a ball drop.  It was worse before they moved the 14th tee back and there was more foliage back there.  It's just a good idea and it takes away any potential problems.

[JohnV]

John,

Another good reason for a drop zone is something like #11 at Augusta.  The committee doesn't want a ball which entered the hazard after running off the green to be dropped at the green side (or even on the green) so they mark it as a regular hazard and then put in a drop zone.  The other benefit of this is that it removes any argument about a ball which curved in the air as to whether it crossed the line before the green or alongside it.

I've seen the USGA mark more hazards that would have been lateral in the past as regular hazards and put in a ball drop in the last few years.

[TEPaul]

"JVB,
If you look at an aerial of the green and the creek, I don't believe the configuration of both bear out your explanation."


Patrick:

Have you ever believed anyone and anyone's explanation on anything other than your own? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

"JVB,
If you look at an aerial of the green and the creek, I don't believe the configuration of both bear out your explanation."


Patrick:

Have you ever believed anyone and anyone's explanation on anything other than your own? 

Certainly not when they haven't personally examined the area in question.

JVB,

There's PLENTY of room for a drop in your photo.
You're letting the drip line unduely influence your perspective.
Just because the golfer can't extend his option to infinity doesn't mean that a viable, reasonable drop can't be taken.[/color]

[TEPaul]

"Certainly not when they haven't personally examined the area in question."

So, Patrick, that sounds suspiciously like you don't believe the members of the Masters Tournament Committee have personally examined the area in question? 

Why don't you go to bed before you get both feet in your mouth and hurt yourself?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I didn't know that you had annointed them with ...... infallibility.

Irrespective of the reasons for a drop zone, which I'd like to hear, why is it in such a benign position, especially for Sunday's hole location ?

[JohnV]

"JVB,
If you look at an aerial of the green and the creek, I don't believe the configuration of both bear out your explanation."


Patrick:

Have you ever believed anyone and anyone's explanation on anything other than your own? 

Certainly not when they haven't personally examined the area in question.

JVB,

There's PLENTY of room for a drop in your photo.
You're letting the drip line unduely influence your perspective.
Just because the golfer can't extend his option to infinity doesn't mean that a viable, reasonable drop can't be taken.[/color]

And just because you could get a drop where I drew the picture doesn't mean there might not be other places where you can't.  And in the end, it is the Committee's decision, not yours or mine.  But, since you know more than they do you would know that it isn't needed.  And here I was hoping a picture might save 1000 words

[James Bennett]

John VB

If you superimpose Patrick's response onto your overlay (with the Augusta green presentation) you will find that most of Patrick's comments disappear!

Green ink on green grass!

 

James B