[Rich Goodale]

Paul Casey just got a one stroke penalty for his ball moving after address. on the 6th green  However......

....as I saw it, his bunker shot ended up settling into  in a little indentation on the green, so when it rolled into that indentation after his addressing the putt, it could have only done so if he had replaced his ball in a differnet place than where he found it before marking it (i.e. outside the little indentation).

Was that not, in itself a violation of the Rules?  Also, once it rolled into the indentation (on address), was not his replacing the ball back outside of the indentation yet another violation of the Rules?

Calling John V.!

[Dave_Miller]

Paul Casey just got a one stroke penalty for his ball moving after address. on the 6th green  However......

....as I saw it, his bunker shot ended up settling into  in a little indentation on the green, so when it rolled into that indentation after his addressing the putt, it could have only done so if he had replaced his ball in a differnet place than where he found it before marking it (i.e. outside the little indentation).

Was that not, in itself a violation of the Rules?  Also, once it rolled into the indentation (on address), was not his replacing the ball back outside of the indentation yet another violation of the Rules?

Calling John V.!

Rich:
I saw the penalty but did not see the bunker shot or where the ball was placed.  Was the indentation on the putting green some type of irregularity such as a ball mark or old hole location?  If so did he fix the mark?  Since I'm not sure exactly what happened I can't give a definitive asnwer.
Best
Dave 

[Rich Goodale]

I'm not sure, either, Dave.  I just saw his ball settle into the indentation after the bunker shot, and then (several camera cuts later) move (seemingly) forward into an (the same?) indentation after addressing it on the green.

[Mike Sweeney]

It appeared the ball moved when he grounded his putter, thus 1 stroke. We saw him trying to replace it, but there was an indentation that did not appear to be a ball mark. They cut away before a final decision.

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment a. General

When a player's ball is in play, if:

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or

(ii) equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

[Tim Bert]

It seems possible that as hard as the wind is blowing that the ball moved for that reason and not because he replaced his ball in a different spot. 

Once the rules official was engaged, it looked like he tried to replace the ball back in the exact spot twice and it rolled over.  I'm not sure if there is something that allows you to place the ball in the nearest available spot if the ball will not remain still (Something like the drop two and then place the ball when taking a penalty drop.)  I don't know the rule, but that looks like what was happening.

[Rich Goodale]

Tim

My memory of the bunker shot is that it settled into an indentation.  If so, and he marked and replaced it properly, there was no way the ball would have moved, wind or no, either the first ime (when he got the penalty) or when he was trying to replace it after the penalty.  I could be wrong, but that's what I think I saw.

Rich

[Tim Bert]

If it landed in an indentation, is he allowed to repair it (assuming it was some type of ball mark) when he lifts his ball?  If so, that could have caused it to move to another part that became slightly lower when he repaired the mark.

[Dave_Miller]

It appeared the ball moved when he grounded his putter, thus 1 stroke. We saw him trying to replace it, but there was an indentation that did not appear to be a ball mark. They cut away before a final decision.

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment a. General

When a player's ball is in play, if:

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or

(ii) equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Mike:
The issue Rich raises isn't the rule, Rule 18-2 is clear and the penalty was properly assessed.  Rich is asking if he placed his ball in a wrong place after he marked it.  I didn't see this part so I can't tell if he violated Rule 20-7 even though it would not have been a serious breach it could have led to a two (2) stroke penalty.
Best
Dave

[Dave_Miller]

If it landed in an indentation, is he allowed to repair it (assuming it was some type of ball mark) when he lifts his ball?  If so, that could have caused it to move to another part that became slightly lower when he repaired the mark.

Tim:
There are certain irregularities of surface on the Putting Green that can be repaired.  Under
 Rule 16-1c "The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball..."
"Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole."
Since I'm not sure what the indentation was I don't know if he could have repaired it or not.
Best
Dave

[RJ_Daley]

Pardon my ignorance, but while I can read the rules, I still am left with many questions about the entire process of the ball's position, marking, and replacement, vis-a-vis green damage or irregularities where the ball comes to rest on the approach.  Then that whole "oscillating" thing.  I couldn't see Weaver's ball move at all on the replays on 15 Friday.  I didn't really detect it on Casey's ball today, nor the action on the ball as it came to rest on the approach. 

I have also had questions on the marking "coins" and the difference in the commonly used markers with a spike that we often "push" into the turf.  How many times do guys ask if a marked ball with one of the typical markers with the spike on the down side "is OK for someone elses line" and the other guy will say, "if it is flat, just push it down, it is OK".  Isn't that a rule violation right there?  And, if you are marking, just how kosher is it and how hard are you allowed to push the marker in, where by doing so, you might just "smooth" out a blemish just like what Rich is asking might have been there in the first place with Casey's ball coming to rest in a depression?

I need to have a on the green rules session with JV or Callum the next time I have the opportunity to be around one of them. 

[David Ober]

Pardon my ignorance, but while I can read the rules, I still am left with many questions about the entire process of the ball's position, marking, and replacement, vis-a-vis green damage or irregularities where the ball comes to rest on the approach.  Then that whole "oscillating" thing.  I couldn't see Weaver's ball move at all on the replays on 15 Friday.  I didn't really detect it on Casey's ball today, nor the action on the ball as it came to rest on the approach. 

Oops, post edited.

It wasn't Weaver's ball that moved, but Thompson's.

[Dave_Miller]

Pardon my ignorance, but while I can read the rules, I still am left with many questions about the entire process of the ball's position, marking, and replacement, vis-a-vis green damage or irregularities where the ball comes to rest on the approach.  Then that whole "oscillating" thing.  I couldn't see Weaver's ball move at all on the replays on 15 Friday.  I didn't really detect it on Casey's ball today, nor the action on the ball as it came to rest on the approach. 

I have also had questions on the marking "coins" and the difference in the commonly used markers with a spike that we often "push" into the turf.  How many times do guys ask if a marked ball with one of the typical markers with the spike on the down side "is OK for someone elses line" and the other guy will say, "if it is flat, just push it down, it is OK".  Isn't that a rule violation right there?  And, if you are marking, just how kosher is it and how hard are you allowed to push the marker in, where by doing so, you might just "smooth" out a blemish just like what Rich is asking might have been there in the first place with Casey's ball coming to rest in a depression?

I need to have a on the green rules session with JV or Callum the next time I have the opportunity to be around one of them. 

RJ
Rule 16-1 and the decisions around this rule answer most of your questions.  However it can get complicated and Rule 13-2 could also come into play.
Talk with JV he will straighten it our for you.
Best
Dave

[JohnV]

Where to begin?

I didn't see what happened with Casey.

Dick, the reason you didn't see Weaver's ball move on Friday was because his didn't.  Michael Thompson's ball definitely did move on #15 though.

On to what I've read about Casey from above.

If his ball did come to rest in a depression, he could mark the ball and lift it.  If the depression was clearly a ball mark or old hole plug he could fix it.  If it wasn't he couldn't.  Did he fix it?

Now, if he didn't  fix it he would have to put his ball back in it.  If he didn't and he hit the putt, he would be liable under Rule 20-7 for playing from a wrong place and be penalized two strokes under Rule 20-3.

But, if he tried to put his ball back where he thought it was and it wouldn't stay there, he would have to find the nearest spot where it would stay that wasn't nearer the hole.  Did they show him replacing the first time?  Did he have a problem with it staying in place?

So, once it was in place (any place, even the wrong one), and he had grounded the club behind the ball and it moved he would get a one stroke penalty and have to replace the ball.  Again, if it wouldn't stay where it was, he would have to find the nearest place it would.

As for Dick's other questions, the marker should be place so that it does the minimal amount of damage, but if things are changed Decision 20-1/15.5 says that is ok and you live with any improvement or worsening of the lie.  There is a decision (20-1/6.5) that says the marker can be pushed down by anyone including an opponent in match play.

[Mike Sweeney]

If his ball did come to rest in a depression, he could mark the ball and lift it.  If the depression was clearly a ball mark or old hole plug he could fix it.  If it wasn't he couldn't.  Did he fix it?

John,

CBS cut away, so we have no way of knowing (of course that wont stop us from trying  ).

[Dennis_Harwood]

I have also had questions on the marking "coins" and the difference in the commonly used markers with a spike that we often "push" into the turf.  How many times do guys ask if a marked ball with one of the typical markers with the spike on the down side "is OK for someone elses line" and the other guy will say, "if it is flat, just push it down, it is OK".  Isn't that a rule violation right there?  And, if you are marking, just how kosher is it and how hard are you allowed to push the marker in, where by doing so, you might just "smooth" out a blemish just like what Rich is asking might have been there in the first place with Casey's ball coming to rest in a depression?

I need to have a on the green rules session with JV or Callum the next time I have the opportunity to be around one of them. 

See decision 20-1/15.5-- A player is entitled to mark his ball and any incidental improving (or worsening) the lie or line of play is a proper consequence of that permitted action.

Also, once a Rules Official is called in and consulted re where to replace the ball, the wise player will, before playing his next stroke, consult the official concerning whether the ball has been replaced in a proper place.  Once that Official says yes (assuming the player has not intentionally mislead the official) THAT place is a right place since a player proceeding with an official's blessing is not subject to penalty for that action-- See 34-3/3 for example-

[JohnV]

Once that Official says yes (assuming the player has not intentionally mislead the official) THAT place is a right place since a player proceeding with an official's blessing is not subject to penalty for that action-- See 34-3/3 for example-

It doesn't even have to be intentional.  See Decision 34-3/8.  There is nothing there that says the player intentionally mislead the official.

[Jay Flemma]

Is it at all possible that his is another reason not to cut the greens so closely?  Is it not fair that a guy gets a two stroke penalty essentially because the green speeds are "parquet floor?"

Either that or change the rule to replace with no penalty?  Or put a "local rule" in effect to the same end.  I mean where's the harm in being a little forgiving?

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