5 hours golf and resorts, is this the root of all evil?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Sure Barona is the most cited example and yes 5 of us did play Mid Pines in 3 hours once.

However, the earlier round at Tobacco Road was well over 4 hourse and I played one round at Crystal Downs with 3 other GCAer's that took 5 hours!  I actually didn't care that that round took long though.

Plus we had a gathering of 11 or so GCAer's at Bandon on year and the best round was 4:15 and we were the first group off that morning.

The rounds at Black Mesa weren't all that fast either.

Some of it is the courses, but some of us are just plain slow, after all nobody wants to admit they are a slow player.

Honestly some courses I can't wait for the round to be over, but if your playing Sand Hills, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, The Old Course, Royal Melbourne, etc., then I'm not in a great hurry to get it over. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Thanks, glad to clear the air

Melvyn

[Tom Huckaby]

Craig:  all good points.  But I'd still take the average GCAer over the average public course golfer in terms of playing without delay.  I will never accept that in general this group plays slowly.  Just as Dan Quayle was no Jack Kennedy, well... I have seen slow golfers, and this group are not slow golfers.

 

Melvyn - my pleasure, and again, my bad originally.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

Tom,

      I would say that less than 5 percent of the golfers I have played with via GCA and the earlier incarnations are what I would categorize as slow golfers.  But it only takes one!     

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

      I would say that less than 5 percent of the golfers I have played with via GCA and the earlier incarnations are what I would categorize as slow golfers.  But it only takes one!     

I'd say it takes more than one to make an entire field go slowly.  But the wrongly-placed one could do it.  Perhaps that happened at some GCA events.  Oh well....

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I thought GCA events were matchplay competitions....that should speed things up a bit, not slow em down. 

[Michael Powers]

The horse left the barn a long time ago on this one.  No entity on the public side of golf is ever willing to take a stand and demand that golf be played in a reasonable amount of time.  Take your pic from below.

Resorts and public facilities are not willing to upset John Q. Public or the resort guest and they refuse to monitor pace.

Unlike many other parts of the word, there is never any handicap or skill level requirement.  The only requirement is that you have the ability to plunk down your cash or credit card, and that's all they are concerned with.

The culture of the players at most public or resort facilities is one of entitlement.  i.e. "I paid my money and I'll play as slow or as fast as I please".

Public courses often "hire" rangers or marshalls and they work for free golf.  These "non-employees" are more concerned with ball hawking than pace of play, and who can blame them.

Resorts simply charge more for golf since they lose rounds because they cannot get enough players on the course with 5 and 6 hour rounds.

It's easier to ignore that any problem even exists, which is really sad.

[JohnV]

Sure Barona is the most cited example and yes 5 of us did play Mid Pines in 3 hours once.

However, the earlier round at Tobacco Road was well over 4 hourse and I played one round at Crystal Downs with 3 other GCAer's that took 5 hours!  I actually didn't care that that round took long though.

Plus we had a gathering of 11 or so GCAer's at Bandon on year and the best round was 4:15 and we were the first group off that morning.

The rounds at Black Mesa weren't all that fast either.

Some of it is the courses, but some of us are just plain slow, after all nobody wants to admit they are a slow player.

Honestly some courses I can't wait for the round to be over, but if your playing Sand Hills, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, The Old Course, Royal Melbourne, etc., then I'm not in a great hurry to get it over. 

If everyone put the d**n cameras away it might help.

5 hours is the new 4 hours.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tiger,
You're not looking for sympathy, correct?  

I don't think there can be any comparison between a five hour round at a beach-resort and a five hour round at a stand alone course. One's to be expected and the other's a shame.

On the other hand, I've played at Pine Needles on a few occasions (where the focus is the golf) and we were never faced with being out longer than 3 1/2 hours, so 36 hole days were no problem, even in late Feb., early Mar..

Five hour rounds are a bother to those wishing to play but not to those wishing to recreate.

[John Burzynski]

I don't think there can be any comparison between a five hour round at a beach-resort and a five hour round at a stand alone course. One's to be expected and the other's a shame.
...

Five hour rounds are a bother to those wishing to play but not to those wishing to recreate.

Jim:

You have hit the nail on the head as far as the crux of this debate.  In general, the 'recreational' or 4-times-a-year golfer seems often to be a slow player, whether due to his or her higher handicap, or their expectation of a day on the course as total relaxation first and skillful golf second.  A generalization, sure, but more often than not the truth.

If you go to one of these resort golf venues, you might have your spouse with you, and your round with the spouse may be less than competitive, at least if you want your marriage to last until you get back to the hotel room (and trust me, this can work both ways, I have seen a couple of wives who can beat their husbands on the course, let alone most other male golfers).  Your expectation at a resort is to relax, you are on vacation, and you are not as concerned with ready golf or a quick round after work.

At home, you might be inclined to golf at a more rapid or what should be regular pace.  You might be out on a Saturday morning and need to be home by noon to mow the lawn, or you might be trying for a quick nine after work. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

No, no sympathy at all from Cabo. That is the land of short skirts dancing in the sky above. However, 5 hour golf is not good for the game anywhere.  One drives 30 minutes each way, gets there an hour early to warm up etc, and a drink or lunch afterwards. That makes golf a full day event. 4 hours golf challenges the society we live in now. One needs to eye the cart golf path only, set back lines, maintenance practices and holes all over creation pretty hard in my very seldom humble opinion.

[Jerry Kluger]

I went out early at Kapalua Plantation but when we were coming in players were complaining that nine holes had taken 3 hours.

[Greg Tallman]

Why did I know this was about Cabo when I read the title?

I can assure you the excessively long rounds are for lack of effort on our end, but in the end it is a no win situation.

Unfortunately we are rather pleased when keeping the rounds at 4 hours 30 minutes and under.

A little tricky forcing a foursome who just paid $1400 to skip holes but sometimes it must be done.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Greg(and this is not just directed at you),

When you are taking $350.00 from someone you are no longer charging them for golf, you're charging them for the 'experience'. When you've chosen to sell them that you mostly lose the ability to control the pace at which they choose to enjoy it, and this is rightly so.
If you're going to charge those kinds of fees you might as well just tell them the rate is for all day, and to let the faster players through as they'll still have 'x' number of daylight hours in which to finish their round.
The only places where 5 hour rounds should offend anyone is at resorts or clubs that specifically feature the golf, like a Pine Needles, or at their local muni, public, semi, or private course.

[Sean_A]

GCAers?  I haven't played with that many, but I do recall playing fairly quickly at Littlestone & Hoylake.  Deal was a  bit slower probably because of the rain and me hoicking shots left coming home trying to keep the ball low.  Mid Pines was decent pace, probably just under 4 hours.  Pine Needles was slow, far too slow and to be honest I was bored - I can't stay interested in golf  when its that slow and golf showed it.  Tobacco Road was slow, terribly slow, had to be something like 4:45.  I have never gone round there in good time and it is mainly due to knucklehead golfers, but the design is flawed in that it doesn't get players around (something like AwsHuckster was suggesting).  That isn't to say that Strantz didn't get the best out of the property, but when you pick land like The Road to build a course on there are gonna be problems. 

Resorts?  The last resort I played was Pinehurst (or is that a golf destination? - better get Mucci to define it) and the pace of play there was a bit slow, but not what I expected - just about 4 hours. 

It shouldn't matter how much a round costs, golf shouldn't take 5 hours, golf should rarely take 4 hours.  it just gets boring (like standing in right field) standing about.  Bad designs (yes, I do blame designs for slow play even if the archie couldn't do any better) and goofy golfers cause slow golf.  God help me if I ever move back to the States.  I probably wouldn't ever play more than 9 holes.   

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean
You must have hit Pine Needles at the wrong time. I've played just over a half dozen rounds there and it's never taken longer than 3 1/2 hrs for any of them.

.......and yes, it does matter how much a round costs. Once a course is priced north of a certain line it isn't just selling the golf anymore, and many of the buyers who show up are there to buy that side of the line.

If you do move back to the US you won't have to look too hard or too long to find courses where a reasonable pace of play is the norm, not the exception.

[Sean_A]

Sean
You must have hit Pine Needles at the wrong time. I've played just over a half dozen rounds there and it's never taken longer than 3 1/2 hrs for any of them.

.......and yes, it does matter how much a round costs. Once a course is priced north of a certain line it isn't just selling the golf anymore, and many of the buyers who show up are there to buy that side of the line.

If you do move back to the US you won't have to look too hard or too long to find courses where a reasonable pace of play is the norm, not the exception.

Jim

The problem with your logic is that everybody has a different line of what is expensive.  For a lot of people $100 is a load for a game of golf.  Does this mean they should lolly gagabout because of some self perceived notion to "get their monies worth"?  I am not buying it and I think these sorts of reasons for excusing slow play (it sounds a lot like if you have a load of dosh you can play as as slowly as you like!) are bad for the game.  If guys want to take a lot of time on the course they should go out for a second round. 

So far as Pine Needles is concerned, I honestly don't know why it was so slow.  The course is very walkable though not to the degree Mid Pines is.  Perhaps chaps were tired as it was the second round and there wasn't really a proper break between games (a big mistake imo if two rounds are scheduled for a large group).  Or perhaps things were just crowded as we teed off around lunch time.  Whatever the problem was, it dented my enjoyment of the course.  I think the exact opposite of you.  I figure if you pay what Pine Needles charges then the game should move quicker because the club should see to it - whatever that entails.  In reality, these places jam just as many punters on the course as a local muni.  To be honest, for me, places usually get one chance to impress.  If they fail I take my money elsewhere.  It may be a great shame, but Pine Needles failed.  I liked the course, but it wasn't particularly special for me or good enough to hang about for ~5 hours. 

I don't envision moving to the US until possibly retirement age as my fixed income will stretch much further in the US than England.  I have had plenty of experience playing golf in the US and there is no way around it - public golf tends to be very slow. 

Ciao

[Greg Tallman]

Greg(and this is not just directed at you),

When you are taking $350.00 from someone you are no longer charging them for golf, you're charging them for the 'experience'. When you've chosen to sell them that you mostly lose the ability to control the pace at which they choose to enjoy it, and this is rightly so.
If you're going to charge those kinds of fees you might as well just tell them the rate is for all day, and to let the faster players through as they'll still have 'x' number of daylight hours in which to finish their round.
The only places where 5 hour rounds should offend anyone is at resorts or clubs that specifically feature the golf, like a Pine Needles, or at their local muni, public, semi, or private course.

I understand your thought but not so certain I agree. The rate entitles one to a tee time... not the right to potentially ruin the day for everyone else. We certainly attempt to be hands on when it comes to pace but as stated before it is a fine line.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Greg,
Sure it's a fine line, you don't want to lose those $1,400.00 foursomes, or the rest of the dollars they spend at your resort.  Get too proactive in your efforts to control the pace of play and the only person's day you'll be ruining is yours.
I really think it mainly pertains to my first point, the type of facility in question, although I still believe there is a corrollary between pace and price.

Sean,
You're missing the point, it's not just about how much as it relates to a person's wealth, it's about how much as it relates to the overall market of available product. Some of the wealthy people I know can drop $1,000 like I'd drop $1.00, but we each know what is a grand's worth of golf.
Fast play at a resort where the golf may be excellent, but is not why most of the guests are there, happens about as frequently as a bow-legged cowboy catching a greased pig in an alley.
 

[Sean_A]

Greg,
Sure it's a fine line, you don't want to lose those $1,400.00 foursomes, or the rest of the dollars they spend at your resort.  Get too proactive in your efforts to control the pace of play and the only person's day you'll be ruining is yours.
I really think it mainly pertains to my first point, the type of facility in question, although I still believe there is a corrollary between pace and price.

Sean,
You're missing the point, it's not just about how much as it relates to a person's wealth, it's about how much as it relates to the overall market of available product. Some of the wealthy people I know can drop $1,000 like I'd drop $1.00, but we each know what is a grand's worth of golf.
Fast play at a resort where the golf may be excellent, but is not why most of the guests are there, happens about as frequently as a bow-legged cowboy catching a greased pig in an alley.
 

Jim

All you say may be true, but it doesn't make it right, good, desireable and is probably the reason I have a certain disdain for resort golf.   

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

It took the final twosome FIVE hours to play today.

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