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Peter Pallotta

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2008, 10:50:25 AM »
Bob

Sinatra, ironically.

Peter

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 11:16:45 AM »

Why does it have to be one or the other? This is like asking which pier under a bridge is most important. They are ALL important.

The visionary/developer, the architect, the team of consultants, the contractor (shapers included), the banker, the superintentent, the golf pro, the clubhouse manager, the guy who cuts the grass around the entrance - all are necessary for the project to come off well.

Although it is a good exercise to weigh the relative value of each, and more importantly, what will suffer if one of them doesn't do his job well, to say one is more important at the exclusion of all others doesn't do justice to all the contributors to an outstnading golf experience.

I do not think you can say the developer is more important to the success of a project, once you get beyond the fact that the developer/visionary started the ball rolling.

Mike, As a newbie you sure are good at reading the subtext.
At first my  thoughts were exactly George Pazin and TW's Sistine analogy. But, since our author has divulged his motives, it's just another gca.com bashing platform. Well done
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 11:24:04 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2008, 11:19:48 AM »
Mike

Many of the great architects were amateurs at one point too:  Colt at Sunningdale,  Fowler at Walton Heath,  Mackenzie at Alwoodley

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2008, 11:21:21 AM »

Mike, As a newbie you sure are good at reading the subtext.



Which is to say...all of your positive attributes work inversely to your post count...have you seen Tom Paul on one of his deleting sprees...he becomes a hell of alot nicer afterwards...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2008, 11:32:43 AM »

It's like the Sinatra song, "Love and Marriage": you can't have one without the other. 


Terry,

Who said?

Bob

I'm with Bob on this one, especially in todays society.  There are several example of both existing independent of each other.  ;)

As for this topic, I do think they really do need each other.  Not to pile on Sand Pines, but to me its the poster child of a great piece of property that could have been so much more.  I'm not saying thats what would have happened necessarily at Bandon without Kidd, Doak, and C&C.  But can anyone say the product wouldn't have been noticeably different if it was Nicklaus, Palmer, and Fazio building those three courses??

Mike Sweeney

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2008, 11:43:30 AM »
[
Mike, As a newbie you sure are good at reading the subtext.
At first my  thoughts were exactly George Pazin and TW's Sistine analogy. But, since our author has divulged his motives, it's just another gca.com bashing platform. Well done

Clayman,

Absolutely not. This is a celebration of people like the O'Neill Brothers. If Tom was too busy on other projects, I think C&C or Gil Hanse would have also produced a great course at Ballyneal. Others too.

Tom is gone now, but it is the O'Neill's that will make it a great club rather than just a great course. Certainly they are the ones responsible for the ever improving conditioning.

Why did you chose Ballyneal over Dismal River?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2008, 02:19:35 PM »
Logistics, for one. Plus, when I saw DR originally, it never occurred to me to join.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2008, 03:58:09 PM »
Rich -

thanks for that post. Can you expand on it a bit. What I found particularly interesting is the "critical final 5%" idea, i.e. that an Old Tom could instantly see the golf holes and lay them out in a day (the 95%), but that the final 5% is what really made the difference in creating a great golf course.  If routing was and is such an important part of the process (especially prior to the earth-moving years), what kind of things/work/ideas were involved in that final 5% that was so crucial? I guess what I'm asking is: how can so little mean so much?

Thanks
Peter

Thanks, Peter

That "final 5%" idea is hardly mine--it is a pretty well known concept relative any sort of project management.  The theory that skilled practitioners of any "art" can get 95% of the job conceptualized almost immediately is mine, and based on my own experience and my observation of others.  In this context, the only way you can define that final 5% at the beginning is by calling it the "je ne sais quoi" factor.  You know you have most of the problem licked, but you also know that there is something out there you have missed that is critical.  Finding and fixing that elusive 5% is one of the key skills of any management task.

For a static art (e.g. painting, poetry, music), you can try to find and fix that final 5%, but once you put your work to paper or canvas its damned difficult to do any restoration.  You can change the poem or the song but then it really isn't the same work that it used to be, and the prior work still exists, on paper, somewhere.

A golf course, on the other hand is almost infinitely more mutable that static art.  Even if not touched at all after conception it changes from day one and will look more different for every year it exists.  Does anybody think that today's Pine Valley looks anything like the course that Crump left, or even the course that some of our esteemed members first played back in the 50's and 60's?  Courses are also much more complex than other forms of art or artifice because of their vast scale, their exposure to meteorloogical and geological forces and, most importantly) their continuing relationship with man.

Since they are mutable, getting that "final 5%" is far less important than it is in, say, composing a symphony since the architect must know that he will never get everything right the first time, and the course will change regardless of what skill or effort he puts into its design and construction.  It is for this reason, I think, that so many of the greatest courses were designed by amateurs--they never considered themselves to be artists, but rather just active and passionate participants in an ongoing process.

Rich

Mark Bourgeois

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2008, 04:40:47 PM »
Rich

Do you mean to define the last 5% here in terms of craftsmanship rather than art?

And why don't you throw routing in the 5%?  Are you thinking in terms of project chronology or in terms of project marginal value?

Thanks
Mark

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2008, 04:52:32 PM »
Where would the final 5% be without the initial 95%?

Seems like you're presuming a heckuva lot.

Think of it this way:

Which course would turn out better:

1) I do a routing, bunkering scheme, construction, etc., Tom D comes in a tweaks the green contours, maybe shifts a bunker or tee or two;

or

2) Tom D does the routing, bunkering, construction, etc., and I come in and try not to eff things up too badly.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2008, 05:06:16 PM »
Is this thread proving that Trump is actually more important to golf than Doak? ;D

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2008, 05:14:19 PM »
Mr. Burke told me yesterday there aren't a lot of architects that have seen $10MM spent at the club after it is built.


Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2008, 05:16:47 PM »
Is this thread proving that Trump is actually more important to golf than Doak? ;D

If it is saying anything - it is that the great developer is rarer than the great architect - in any given year anyway.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2008, 05:22:12 PM »
So Mike are you saying in comparison to the great developer the great architects are ten a penny? :-\

Rich Goodale

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2008, 05:22:47 PM »
Mark

I think the first 95% is instinct and the latter 5% a combination of graft (craftsmanship), eye (art) and luck (Irishness).  Vis a vis routing, as my paradigm is the realy old really dead guys, I think that most of it would happen in the first 95% phase, with occasional inspirations in the later phases (and remember, that for golf courses, those later phases might come 5,, 10 or 50 years after phase 1).  And, yes, I am thinking of marginal value.  Some examples of the last 5%--that little hump 10 yards before the 2nd green at Dornoch that seriously complicates the ground game option, Mona Lisa's smile, the last phrase from "Abbey Road"--"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

George

See above.  If you have the knowledge and imagination of the average successful golf course architect I'd take option 1.  If you do not, you shouldn't be wasting your time pretending you are good enough to do either task. :)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2008, 05:26:18 PM »
 :)

That's kind of like saying if you have Michael Jordan's height, build, athletic ability, basketball skills, will to win, and any number of other things - then all you need is the knack to make the occasional game winner.

Or, maybe your simply saying that there is little difference between a true 10 and what most consider automatic 10s. I'd probably agree with that.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Sweeney

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2008, 04:42:49 AM »
Is this thread proving that Trump is actually more important to golf than Doak? ;D

"Tom Doak Golf" comes up 32,000 places on Google

"Donald Trump Golf" comes up 350,000 or so places on Google

I've said it before, Trumper is obviously a obnoxious passionate golf nut with strong opinions on design. How different is he than the 1500 posters here?  :D

Mark Bourgeois

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2008, 08:15:22 AM »
Rich

You lost me a bit by choosing marginal value over chronology or effort.  The last 5% of a project's chronology -- or *effort* -- often produces disproportionate value.  Sometimes it's the last turn of the screwdriver for the perfect fit, and sometimes it's realizing after all that work you don't need a screwdriver at all; you need a hammer.

But to choose marginal value: the last 5% handled by the amateurs / developers, it's just 5% of the value.  Doesn't that put you on the side of architects?

Mark

Carl Rogers

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2008, 08:55:33 AM »
I am not sure I understand this thread. 

Is not it self evident that great work is created and exists through the interaction and commitment of many that bring a multitude talents and resources to bear?

Rich Goodale

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2008, 09:04:24 AM »
Don't weorry, Mark--I lose myself quite often, even possibly on this thread.  Rethinking what I believe, I think I have been trying to say that there are 5% windows at BOTH the start and the end of a project which will detemine the vast majority of its value.  This is why Mackenzie and Morris could produce such great stuff with little time on rudimentary sites, and also why Braid  and Colt could go into mature sites and seriously improve them with relatively little effort.

Make any more sense?

Oops, and to birng it back on topic, do not the developers/owners have their greatest interest and influence at these two ends of a project?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 09:07:12 AM by Richard Farnsworth Goodale »

Mark Bourgeois

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2008, 09:18:48 AM »
One thought your post prompts is that sponsors really act more as constraints on the design rather than enablers.

They say, here's your site, you get this bit. Your budget is X. Some sponsors place fewer constraints. They are like enablers, but still they place constraints on the designer.

That's different from saying a sponsor actually acts as a creator of actual features of the design, though. If we are talking about actual creation, then that's another story.

...Hey wait a minute - isn't this a closet VORP thread?!

Mark

Mike Sweeney

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2008, 09:28:36 AM »


Is not it self evident that great work is created and exists through the interaction and commitment of many that bring a multitude talents and resources to bear?

Yes, but it all starts at the top with the developer. Keiser picked David Kidd from obscurity to start off at Bandon. He could have picked a dozen guys as architect for that first course. My point is it was his vision that drove that project.

I have visited neither so I am just speculating, but if Keiser was the developer and had picked Rees Jones at Sandpines in Oregon, it would be a completely different course.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2008, 09:38:36 AM »
This is not an all or nothing proposition.  It is a collaboration.  It's success generally stems from a developer with a certain vision who ends up with an architect that shares that vision is is left alone by the developer to carry it out and then a builder who buys into the vision and is able to effect the architects concepts and then to finding the right superintendant who has the ability and drive to polish the finished product and see to it that any imperfections are messaged out.  It is when one (or more) of the 4 legs of this table strays from the vision that the project suffers from the instability.
Coasting is a downhill process

Rich Goodale

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2008, 10:39:32 AM »
One thought your post prompts is that sponsors really act more as constraints on the design rather than enablers.

They say, here's your site, you get this bit. Your budget is X. Some sponsors place fewer constraints. They are like enablers, but still they place constraints on the designer.

That's different from saying a sponsor actually acts as a creator of actual features of the design, though. If we are talking about actual creation, then that's another story.

...Hey wait a minute - isn't this a closet VORP thread?!

Mark

Mark

Sometimes (most times?) designers need some restraint.  Informed and creative owners/developers (Crump, Sutherland, Bakst, Keiser, etc.) exercise this restraint constructively.

Rich

PS--VORP you, Pilgrim!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2008, 09:30:53 PM »
Rich:

I agree that most designers need some restraint.

But, you failed to mention that most CLIENTS need restraint, too.  Many are far too grandiose in their desires and plans, and they cause the designer to overreach and fail.

The best courses are all the result of a proper combination of client and architect, and good understanding between them.

Dick Youngscap was as good a client as there will ever be, because being an architect himself, he understood how NOT to constrain his architects.

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