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Mike Sweeney

I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« on: April 10, 2008, 06:47:30 AM »
I have always thought there is way to much glory going to the architects around here, at least in some instances.

Isn't the developer the real key?

Does anyone doubt that without Crump, his money, time, connections, passion, achitectural and building abilities, Pine Valley would never be what it is today with or without a Colt routing?

Mike Keiser, funded, dreamed, picked the architects and then brought in the teams  to deliver his dream.

The Merion Cricket Club commitee with Hugh Wilson as the lead, were the ones that made Merion, right?

Basically isn't 90% of what has been talked about here at GCA off-topic as it should be a website about Golf Course Development rather than Architecture?

John Kavanaugh

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2008, 07:09:58 AM »
How about the Alabama Teachers Pension Board?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2008, 08:11:23 AM »
How about the Alabama Teachers Pension Board?

Sure!

Rich Goodale

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2008, 08:16:25 AM »
I think you are onto something here, Mike.  If you look at just about all of the great British and Irish courses, they were created, nurtured and continuously improved mostly through the efforts of the club itself (Committees, Greenkeepers, the Professional and/or the Secretary).  Few (if any) of them represent the vision of an individual architect.  At best, the great architects can only at best share partial credit at places like Dornoch, Portmarnock, Royal County Down, Ballybunion, Rye, Royal Liverpool and Muirfield, to only list a very few.

To inversely parphrase Edison, I think that great golf course architecture is 95% inspiration and 5% perspiration.  This is why the really old and really dead guys like Old Tom Morris could establish world-class routings in a day or two.  They could instantly see proper golf holes and proper sequencing on land which had already been well vetted by members.  If they got the 95% right, the people on the ground (Committee, etc.) could get the critical final 5% right--as well as make significant and often necessary changes-- if they were competent and dedicated (e.g. Crump, Sutherland).  Today, it sdeems, architects are expected to get that 100% from the day of opening, which is not only impossible, but probably invites compromises (i.e. cart-friendly/signature hole-hunting routings) which may be hard to ameliorate by later stewards of the property.

I think we do a disservice to all people involved if we deify just one member of one of the numerous teams and indiividuals which create great golf courses over time.

tlavin

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2008, 08:32:11 AM »
It's like the Sinatra song, "Love and Marriage": you can't have one without the other.  Keiser isn't an architect (although he now has tons of experience in hands-on dealing with them.  And Tom Doak isn't a developer (although he could probably do a fair imitation).  They need each other; if they didn't, Keiser would be doing Old MacDonald by himself.  He's smart enough to know that he's better off with help.  Likewise, I don't think Doak (or any other architect) is going to buy 1000 acres somewhere and build a golf resort.




Patrick_Mucci

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2008, 08:34:58 AM »
Mike,

I've long held that it's the visionary, the individual who's the driving force behind the golf course that's the critical element.

After all, he selects the architect.

Lowell Schulman, Ken Bakst, Dick Youngscap, Jack Lupton, Mike Keiser, Roger Hansen and others who not only have the vision, but possess the knowledge and drive to pursue their vision and see it come to fruition.

I think all of these fellows have a special passion for golf, which when combined with their vision results in a wonderful fininished product.

TEPaul

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2008, 09:10:25 AM »
On the subject of the so-called "amateur" architect I think Doak said it best when he said some of the best courses ever done were basically done by so-called "amateur" architects but a great many other really inferior golf courses were done by amateurs too.

As for many of the very early "professionals" who laid out late 19th and early 20th century courses in America and abroad, most of whom combined the jobs of golf professional. teacher, clubmaker and even greenkeeper, were also not very good according to the likes of C.B. Macdonald who became so disallusioned with what had been done that it prompted him to create NGLA as the first model of architectural excellence in America.

Even if one or two "amateur" architects or "sportsmen" such as Leeds and Emmet preceded Macdonald's NGLA, it seems like NGLA got so much notice as a project possible by a group of amateur sportsmen that the likes of Merion and Pine Valley essentially decided to copy that non-professional model.

But the common thread with all the great "amateur" courses seems to be the amount of time taken to do them. We are talking generally about many, many years here, and that was probably the real key.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2008, 09:13:00 AM »
Mike,
I don't know Mike, it seems to me that the developers of golf-driven projects get a whole lotta love and respect at this site.


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Sweeney

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 09:22:04 AM »
How about the Alabama Teachers Pension Board?

No I need a guy like Terry Friedman who loves golf. The Alabama guys just love the tax dollars that the golf brings them. That is not a bad thing, but we are talking cream of the crop here which you love just as much as any of us despite your protest.

John Kavanaugh

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2008, 09:24:39 AM »
Mike,

I can not find a reason in the world not to love the RTJ Trail.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2008, 09:30:54 AM »
Isn't crediting the developer for a great course a bit like crediting Pope Sixtus IV rather than Michelangello for the Sistine Chapel?

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2008, 09:37:26 AM »
Mike I also like this topic. We love to talk about the painting without noting how it go to that point. It takes a special person to have the money vision and drive to make the good choices along the way. There are so many examples of those who fell short.

Mike Sweeney

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2008, 09:38:05 AM »
Mike,

I can not find a reason in the world not to love the RTJ Trail.

Be honest, 10 rounds how would you split VN versus the entire RTJ trail.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2008, 09:44:36 AM »
Of course you'd take Keiser and Crump.

They're the ones who pick up the tab at dinner.  :)

Mark Bourgeois

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2008, 09:50:14 AM »
I think the answer depends on whether you think of golf courses primarily as engineering projects or art.

John Kavanaugh

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2008, 09:52:56 AM »
RTJ is public and under $50 to play. (When I played this winter)  Honestly, I would always choose an exclusive private course over a public if cost is not an issue, so for me...VN 8  RTJ 2...I need to keep grounded now and then.

But then again, if it wasn't for public golf the privates would be over crowded.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2008, 09:56:42 AM »
Tom nice one. I find the Alabama Jones Golf Trail to have done more positive good  for the image of the State of Alabama than anything else has in the entire history of the state prior to it combined. Alabama football and Gulf Shores being distant 2nd and 3rd. yes I took the Medical research Center and forest gump into account. lol The Oil and Gas Board being on the Alabama campus made my personal list, but I do not think the word is out on that one. I would have done things differently and made different choices on the architects. I forget the mans name who controls the pension funds  but it was his vision and his deal. The project is making money as well. I met with him several times in the  90's to do the same thing in Louisiana. We had to many funds controlled but too many people to keeps the cats in line. My hat is off to the single biggest gift to quality affordable public golf in American history.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 10:00:21 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2008, 10:12:04 AM »
I'll echo Tiger's sentiments.

If your talking about giving credit for the development - The Alabama Teachers Pension Board is far and away #1 on the list for delivering AFFORDABLE golf and creating value for their investment.

Integrity in the moment of choice

Peter Pallotta

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2008, 10:17:24 AM »
Rich -

thanks for that post. Can you expand on it a bit. What I found particularly interesting is the "critical final 5%" idea, i.e. that an Old Tom could instantly see the golf holes and lay them out in a day (the 95%), but that the final 5% is what really made the difference in creating a great golf course.  If routing was and is such an important part of the process (especially prior to the earth-moving years), what kind of things/work/ideas were involved in that final 5% that was so crucial? I guess what I'm asking is: how can so little mean so much?

Thanks
Peter

Mike Bowline

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2008, 10:25:00 AM »
I've long held that it's the visionary, the individual who's the driving force behind the golf course that's the critical element. After all, he selects the architect.
Why does it have to be one or the other? This is like asking which pier under a bridge is most important. They are ALL important.

The visionary/developer, the architect, the team of consultants, the contractor (shapers included), the banker, the superintentent, the golf pro, the clubhouse manager, the guy who cuts the grass around the entrance - all are necessary for the project to come off well.

Although it is a good exercise to weigh the relative value of each, and more importantly, what will suffer if one of them doesn't do his job well, to say one is more important at the exclusion of all others doesn't do justice to all the contributors to an outstnading golf experience.

I do not think you can say the developer is more important to the success of a project, once you get beyond the fact that the developer/visionary started the ball rolling.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2008, 10:27:04 AM »
Apples and oranges.

Of course you wouldn't have the great clubs or courses without the developers, but then again, you probably wouldn't have the same great clubs or courses without the architects, either.

Colt and Doak would still be building great courses for other people. Different locales, different courses - maybe even better ones! :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2008, 10:31:45 AM »
Isn't crediting the developer for a great course a bit like crediting Pope Sixtus IV rather than Michelangello for the Sistine Chapel?

Not to be picky but Pope Sixtus commissioned the Chapel and Pope Julius commissioned Michelangelo.  Without all of them there would not be the Chapel,b ut the point you make is noted.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2008, 10:36:07 AM »
Tommy,

I was going to say Pope Leo (there were a lot of them) but decided to Google it to make sure I sounded clever.  Unfortunately you called me out.

Mike Sweeney

Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 10:44:31 AM »
Apples and oranges.

Of course you wouldn't have the great clubs or courses without the developers, but then again, you probably wouldn't have the same great clubs or courses without the architects, either.

Colt and Doak would still be building great courses for other people. Different locales, different courses - maybe even better ones! :)

George,

If we swap C&C for Doak and vice versa on a project, it will still probably be loved around here. If we swap Fazio for Nicklaus around here, it will probably just be liked.

You can swap architects easier than you can developers and still probably get a similar product, IMHO.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'll take Keiser and Crump over Colt and Doak
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 10:49:20 AM »

It's like the Sinatra song, "Love and Marriage": you can't have one without the other. 


Terry,

Who said?

Bob

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