News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike_Cirba

Press Accounts of early Merion
« on: April 09, 2008, 10:35:46 AM »
Before we get off into another lengthy exercise of parsing words, trying to determine the meaning of "laid out" "constructed" "responsible for", "built" and host of other meaningless semantic dances, I thought it best to put together some of the words of the historic timeframe, as they were written. 

It should be noted that speculation about the identify of "Joe Bunker" took place here recently, with everyone from Tillinghast to Wiliam Poultney Smith listed as possibilities, but it's clear from his volumnious writings for that paper that he had incredible insight into the dealings of the men of the Philadelphia School of Architecture and was clearly writing from the "inside".

It should also be noted that the writer William Evans was the head of the Green Committee at Country Club of Lansdowne, on the GAP Committee, a friend of Robert Lesley, Clarence Geist, Ellis Gimbel, Hugh Wilson, Tillinghast, and all the other major players of the time.   He was another insider's insider.

I'm also thinking that we're being asked to believe that because a ship's manifest for Hugh Wilson's legendary pre-1912 trip cannot be found online 100 years later, that it didn't happen.

Interestingly, neither does George Crump's trip in 1910, although we're told that was due to a mispelling.

We're still waiting to hear why none of the 800+ "H. Wilson"'s who travelled from Britain between 1908 and 1912 are the correct one.

In that light of speculation, let me present the rest in their own words, as they were written back then;


Philly Inquirer – 9/15/12 – “Clubs & Clubmen” column

“Mr. Hugh Wilson went abroad to get ideas for the new course and helped largely in the planning of the holes.”

Philadelphia Public Ledger – 10/12/13 – William Evans

“Hugh I. Wilson, chairman of the Green Committee at the Merion Cricket Club and who is responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line, has been Mr. Geist’s right hand man and has laid out the Sea View course.  Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course at Merion was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect.   Those who have visited the new course have commented warmly on its construction.”

Philadelphia Public Ledger – 11/1/14 - William Evans

“Then comes Hugh I. Wilson of Merion, whose word ought to count for a great deal, for he laid out both the Merion courses and the Seaview links.   He has this to say.. "
 
Philly Inquirer 12/06/14 – Joe Bunker

“Hugh I. Wilson, for a number of year’s chairman of the Green Committee at Merion Cricket Club has resigned.  He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country. “

Philly Inquirer 1/24/15 – Joe Bunker

“Such experts as Hugh Wilson, who laid out the Merion and Seaview courses…have laid out the golf course in Cobb’s Creek Park.”

Philadelphia Public Ledger – 1/31/15 – William Evans

“A Committee made up of Hugh Wilson, the man responsible for the two Merion and new Seaview courses…will aid the park engineers in laying out the course (at Cobb’s Creek)”.

Philly Inquirer 4/23/16 – Joe Bunker

“Nearly every hole on the course (Merion East) has been stiffened (for the US Am) so that in another month or two it will resemble a really excellent championship course.  Hugh Wilson is the course architect and Winthrop Sargent is chairman of the Green Committee.  These two men have given a lot of time and attention to the changes and improvements.  Before anything was done to the course originally, Mr. Wilson visited every golf course of any note not only in Great Britain, but in this country as well, with the result that Merion’s East Course is the last word in golf course architecture.  It has been improved each year until not it is almost perfect from a golf standpoint.

Philly Inquirer 1/14/17 – Billy Bunker

“Hugh Wilson built both the Merion courses and the course at Seaview.”

Philly Inquirer 1/28/17 – Billy Bunker

“Both the Merion Cricket Club courses were built under the direction of Hugh Wilson who also laid out the Seaview course.”

Philly Inquirer 4/22/17 – Billy Bunker

“An expert like Hugh Wilson, who built the two fine courses at Merion believes every club would have better putting greens if not for the craze for lightning-fast greens.


USGA Greens Section report – February 1925 (after Wilson’s death)

“The mature results of his studies in golf architecture are embodied in the East Course at Merion, which was remodeled under his direction in 1923-24.  It is safe to say this his course displays in a superb way all the best ideas in recent golf course architecture along the lines of its American development.  For a long time to come the East course will be a mecca to all serious students of golf architecture.” 

George Thomas – Year unknown (quoted by Geoff Shackelford)

“I always considered Hugh Wilson of Merion, Pennsylvania as one of the best of our golf architects, professional or amateur (note the early need for distinction).  He taught me many things at Merion and the Philadelphia Municipal (Cobb’s Creek) and when I was building my first California courses, he kindly advised me by letter when I wrote him concerning them.” 

Geoff Shackelford – “The Captain”

“Thomas spent considerable time studying Hugh Wilson’s work during the construction of Merion Cricket Club’s East Course in 1912, its West Course in 1914, and at a municipal course in Philadelphia, now Cobb’s Creek.”

Golf Illustrated  – July 20, 1934 – A.W. Tillinghast (a man who had been there since the beginning and witnessed the creation of Merion first-hand)

“There was peculiar pleasure in revisiting Merion after an interval of years for I have known the course since its birth.  Yet, with it all, there was keen regret that my old friend Hugh Wilson had not lived to see such scenes as the National Open unfolded over the fine course that he loved so much.   It seemed rather tragic to me, for so few seemed to know that the Merion course was planned and developed by Hugh Wilson, a member of the club who possessed a decided flair for golf architecture.  Today the great course at Merion, and it must take place along the greatest in America, bears witness to his fine intelligence and rare vision.”


I would assure everyone that the context of each of the quoted articles is wholly consistent with the theme and message being presented here.

If anyone wants to see any of the articles in their entirety, I'm sure Joe Bausch can make that happen.

Thanks, and my apologies to this board for getting upset about being asked to continually question what "is" is,  and told that blue is green.

We're once again being asked to believe that men like Evans and Tillinghast and Smith who knew Wilson personally and were there at the inception had no idea what was going on, or that Hugh Wilson personally did nothing to disavow these rumors of both his golf architectural studies, his voyages, his knowledge, or his architectural achievements so as to be an implicit liar by omission.

That's serious stuff, so if that's the charges, and if that's what you claim to have evidence of counselor, then please put them out there.

This cat and mouse game of "I'm not ready yet" doesn't wash at all.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 11:07:18 PM by MPCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2008, 10:55:00 AM »
Is is is, but blue is only half of green.

With regard to the Evans quote from 10/12/13: 

"“Hugh I. Wilson, chairman of the Green Committee at the Merion Cricket Club and who is responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line, has been Mr. Geist’s right hand man and has laid out the Sea View course.  Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect.   Those who have visited the new course have commented warmly on its construction.”

To which course are they referring in the last sentence?   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2008, 10:58:42 AM »
Seaview.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2008, 12:02:08 PM »
In fact, the following sentence and next paragraph make very clear that the writer is talking about Seaview.   

This is the article in its entirety, but the germane paragraphs are the final two of the right-hand column.


Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2008, 12:44:32 PM »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2008, 02:08:47 PM »
Is is is, but blue is only half of green.

With regard to the Evans quote from 10/12/13: 

"“Hugh I. Wilson, chairman of the Green Committee at the Merion Cricket Club and who is responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line, has been Mr. Geist’s right hand man and has laid out the Sea View course.  Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect.   Those who have visited the new course have commented warmly on its construction.”

To which course are they referring in the last sentence?   


David,

Did you cut and paste the quoted passage? Or did you type it out? This is a question I would appreciate a serious answer to.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 03:16:03 PM »
Can't you guys just keep all of your bickering in 1 thread?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2008, 03:17:14 PM »
Jim,

Cut and paste from Mike Cirba's quote.   May I ask why you ask?


Ryan,

I'd prefer if we got it down to zero threads.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2008, 03:24:18 PM »

“Hugh I. Wilson, chairman of the Green Committee at the Merion Cricket Club and who is responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line, has been Mr. Geist’s right hand man and has laid out the Sea View course.  Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course at Merion was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect.   Those who have visited the new course have commented warmly on its construction.”



Is is is, but blue is only half of green.

With regard to the Evans quote from 10/12/13: 

"“Hugh I. Wilson, chairman of the Green Committee at the Merion Cricket Club and who is responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line, has been Mr. Geist’s right hand man and has laid out the Sea View course.  Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect.   Those who have visited the new course have commented warmly on its construction.”

To which course are they referring in the last sentence?  


Because in your quote "at Merion" was left out.

The  specific words "new course" were written twice; once in referrence to Seaview as Mike answered, but the first "new course" was tagged to Merion in Mike's quote but was left out of yours. It looked to me like you were trying to bait him into answering Seaview for a question that could have addressed Merion for your later advantage...

Tell me, in a cut and paste, how are two words in the middle of the passage left out?

Ryan Farrow

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2008, 03:27:25 PM »
Jim,

Cut and paste from Mike Cirba's quote.   May I ask why you ask?


Ryan,

I'd prefer if we got it down to zero threads.


HAHAHA! good answer. Hey, didn't you almost kill me on the LA freeways a little of a year ago.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 03:42:36 PM »
Ryan, it is hard to tell.  I almost kill hundreds of people on the L.A. freeways every day.

Jim, 

Frankly I couldn't tell you.  Maybe you should ask Mike, since he edited his post over an hour after I posted my question. 

The reason I asked the question is that it is ambiguous, especially when Mike leaves out the next sentence, which notes that the new course will open on May 30.    Merion West opened on May 30.   

So that sentence and the next could apply either to Merion West or Seaview.   But definitely not Merion East.


When did Seaview open??
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 03:46:42 PM »
Agreed about the lack of clarity in the sentence, but remember, the East course would have been viewed as THE NEW COURSE to the Merion membership when it was built. They moved, as a membership, from somewhere else to the Ardmore site...correct?

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 03:59:10 PM »
Shivas,

As to Crump and travel research,     I did come across a note in the Philadelphia Inquirer stating that  George A. Crump  and  Joseph A. Baker did travel to Europe on Hamburg-American Line in 1910.   

The ship, in this time frame,  would have stopped in Southhampton.   This was not in the Sports section per se, and was listed near the Sport section.

The various ship lines and schedules were listed on the same page.  Many days listed some of the travelers and some did not list anyone.  I presume only the social elite and such would merit being listed in the newspaper.

Of course, travels were listed in the social section as well. 

Well, anyway,  the note about Crump and Baker was printed in the newspaper, spelled correctly, etc.     It just listed their names with no article or description of the travel.  It just listed their names, along with many other names.

Would imagine that Hugh Wilson would have made the ‘social' cut and would have been listed.   The purpose of my review was  to somehow find Wilson's name listed through newspaper accounts,   and I stumbled across this single line about Crump.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2008, 04:04:11 PM »
Yes, but by this point there was a new kid in town, even if not yet open.  The course was built, seeded, and had been the talk of the town for quite some time.  An exclusive of the routing had even been printed some time before.  These golf columnists certainly did not wait to talk about a course until it was open, and they did not wait with Merion West.   To think the author is talking about the East course is too much of a stretch for me, at least until we have some hard evidence that the trip took place before Wilson built the East course in spring of 1911.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 04:13:01 PM »
re-reading the magazing clip, neither of you have it worded correctly, but you were clear in you first post that you were asking about "the last sentence" of the quote.

What are the opening dates, if you don't mind, of both Merion courses and Seaview?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2008, 04:50:24 PM »
Sorry...I was away from the computer.

David did nothing nefarious as far as the "at Merion".   

I hand typed the quotes from articles this morning and accidentally omitted that.   I went in and corrected it after I re-read the news article when I posted it.


As far as the west course being the talk of the town prior to opening, that may be the most creative description I have ever heard for attempting to explain away an obvious fact.   

Yes, it was talked about and written about, essentially saying that because the NEW East course had proven so successful, and Merion got so many more rounds than they anticipated, the club had to put a limit on membership...and oh, by the way, they also had to buy another piece of property a mile away and are going to build another course.

There isn't the slightest chance in Hades that William Evans was talking about the West course here.   Absolutely none.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2008, 04:56:39 PM »
Jim,

I thought I had the whole article from Joe's site, but found it got chopped.   Essentially starting at the bottom of the left hand column where it starts to mention Clarence Geist thru the rest is ALL talking about Seaview, except for the note that Wilson...oh yes...also designed that fabulous NEW course at Merion that opened last year that everyone's talking about, that was being hailed as Philadelphia's first real Championship Course, and which had caused a burgeoning membership.

He was not talking about a site where grass had yet to grow.

The West course opened in May of 1914.   Seaview, despite the ambitious plans of Geist, ran into some construction difficulties in filling the swampy parts of the property, and had a soft opening in November before opening for a winter tournament in January 1915 with Jerry Travers and some other notables playing.   If you need more exact dates I can get them.


Mike_Cirba

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2008, 04:57:42 PM »
Yes, but by this point there was a new kid in town, even if not yet open.  The course was built, seeded, and had been the talk of the town for quite some time.  An exclusive of the routing had even been printed some time before.  These golf columnists certainly did not wait to talk about a course until it was open, and they did not wait with Merion West.   To think the author is talking about the East course is too much of a stretch for me, at least until we have some hard evidence that the trip took place before Wilson built the East course in spring of 1911.   


David,

If this is a cornerstone tenet to what you're planning to present, you might want to rethink things.


Later...I'm off to play golf   ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2008, 10:26:53 PM »
Michael Moore,

Absolutely hysterical!   Thanks for adding some much needed levity.  ;D


Joe Bausch,

Can you put up that article in its entirety.

The fact that William Evans is clearly discussing Seaview opening on May 30th will become crystalline for everyone, but it's difficult for those who don't know Merion West very well to discern that fact with the article cut where it is.

As it is, the fact that the article goes into great detail to describe the palatial, imposing clubhouse and amenities that Clarence Geist was building at Seaview and then says the new course and clubhouse would open May 30.

David seems to think that he means Merion West.

Do you think he's seen the Merion West 2X4 clubhouse?  ;)  Better yet, do you have any pictures of it, or couldn't you fit its immensity into one frame?  ;D

Thanks!


Shivas,

On the site that Tom MacWood and David are using, Tom told me that the manifest had been entered as George R. Crump instead of George A. Crump so it wasn't found on the search.  That site is ancestry.com

I used the site Rich Goodale mentioned called findyourpast.com and it's not as persnickety about middle initials.   In fact, if I enter George Crump, or any other name, it will find anything it thinks is even close, including all middle initials, middle names, etc.

It didn't find George Crump's return visit either, but it did find 800+ H. Wilson's coming back from England between 1908-1912.

At about $7 a lookup, I stopped at $100.   

Perhaps Michael Moore could use his imaginative talents with a dollop of CGI and dup about 800 Hugh Wilsons all invading the US shores at once, if the topic isn't humorous enough.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 10:56:57 PM by MPCirba »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2008, 11:18:54 PM »
Mike,

For $100 I'll photoshop you whatever ship manifest you'd like to see for Hugh...  ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2008, 11:21:29 PM »
Before I put this to bed for the night, I also want to question the previous contention that "Far and Sure" who wrote for the American Golfer during this period was Walter Travis.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that it was Tillinghast.  No, I'd bet more than that.

If one examines what "Far and Sure" wrote about Merion in October 1912, and then again in January 1913, it starts to come together when you realize it's Tillinghast, especially when he states that "Mr Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer" in his 1/13 article, it's clear that he's talking about Summer, 1911 or prior, and that his article was written prior to January but published after the year ended.  

To gain that understanding, it's important to read what he wrote 3 months prior when he wrote that "The new eighteen hole course at the Merion Cricket Club, which has been under construction for more than a year was thrown open to members of the club on Saturday, Sept. 14.", and then later states, "The new course...was constructed under the direction of Messrs. Hugh I. Wilson..."

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2008, 12:47:58 AM »
I am not sure who Far and Sure is.  I thought I knew at one point, but now I cant remember why I thought what I thought.   

As for the rest of your post, I have completely failed to follow your logic.

. . . when he states that "Mr Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer" in his 1/13 article, it's clear that he's talking about Summer, 1911 or prior, and that his article was written prior to January but published after the year ended.

Creative interpretation, but as clear as mud.

In the winter of 1912-1913, "last summer" meant summer of 1911 or prior??

It is now spring of 2008, so "last autumn" must mean the autumn of 2006?? Or prior??


It is April now, does "last month" mean February, or perhaps even January or last December?   Wait a minute . . . I've confused myself . . .  "last December" would have to be December of 2006, then, wouldn't it?   
Is last week really two weeks ago, or maybe three or four?? 

Further, I understand why you'd like to add the "or prior"-- Hugh Wilson was busy constructing the course in the Spring and Summer of 1911.  But just throwing it in makes no sense.



Quote
To gain that understanding, it's important to read what he wrote 3 months prior when he wrote that "The new eighteen hole course at the Merion Cricket Club, which has been under construction for more than a year was thrown open to members of the club on Saturday, Sept. 14.", and then later states, "The new course...was constructed under the direction of Messrs. Hugh I. Wilson..."

Hugh Wilson directed the construction.   Isn't that what one would expect of the chair of the construction committee?   

It must just be me, but your reasoning completely eludes me.   
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 12:53:38 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2008, 01:24:56 AM »

Interestingly, neither does George Crump's trip in 1910, although we're told that was due to a mispelling.


This question has been gnawing at me:

How was Crump misspelled?  Was it as simple as "Krump" or "Crumph" "Krumph"?  Or was it glaring?

The reason I ask is that there's butchery (which would hurt the credibility of a record) and there's simple, understandable error (which would not).

Mike:  how was it spelled?  I've combed these theads and haven't seen that piece of info, so I just thought I'd come out and ask...

Don't lose any sleep over this.   Crump returned with Baker on Dec. 3 on the Caronia, from Liverpool   As has been the case with every otherwise verifiable trip of which I am aware, the manifest has been digitized and is locatable.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 02:55:27 AM »

Joe Bausch,

Can you put up that article in its entirety.

The fact that William Evans is clearly discussing Seaview opening on May 30th will become crystalline for everyone, but it's difficult for those who don't know Merion West very well to discern that fact with the article cut where it is.

As it is, the fact that the article goes into great detail to describe the palatial, imposing clubhouse and amenities that Clarence Geist was building at Seaview and then says the new course and clubhouse would open May 30.

David seems to think that he means Merion West.


I think this is the 3rd time now I've posted the entire article.  I have NO IDEA how David can be misinterpreting what Evans has written.


@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Press Accounts of early Merion
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 08:39:15 AM »
Joe:

Evans could not have been referring to Merion West or East in that article as the West has never had a clubhouse and the East course always used the old farmhouse. So the new clubhouse and course referred to would have to be Seaview's.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back