[DMoriarty]

Phillip,

I hope we don't have to go through all this again . . . . My recollection without researching again is that the legal recordkeeping requirement was significantly stiffened by congressional act in 1907.  Before that, I dont recall.   Your trips are all much earlier than that.  Except for last one which you found.   The records seem to be incredibly complete during the time period in question.

It is always difficult to offer proof of a negative, Plus he absence of ANY HARD FACTS is much better proof , than is blind hope that he took an earlier trip.   


As an aside, with just a quick glance I find three trips, but I really dont want to mix Tilly in Wilson here.   

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Could none of the 800+ "H. Wilson"'s who came back from England between 1908 & 1912 be Hugh?   Maybe?  Maybe not?

Look David...several days ago I asked you very kindly to please come forward with any new information that you've alluded to.   As a researcher, I'm keenly interested, but I didn't want to have the same interpretive battles all over again over records that you think are 100% accurate and I believe are significantly incomplete, as well as wording of articles and timeframes.

However, we're back at square one, you've added absolutely nothing new (even though I KNOW you have stuff that you're holding in an attempt to make fools of some of us)  and I for one don't have either the time or the temperament for the game.

And yes, I do know it's a setup, designed to embarrass Tom and Wayne, revenge for past grievances, and probably to get me too at this point.   Nice that you have time for such pettiness.     Frankly, I had thought much more highly of you, even after all that past contentiousness we've had.   You know, I feared this was your plan from the start, but then I thought to myself..."nah...he's not that kind of a guy" 

I was wrong.

Sadly, the ironic truth is that even if you manage to make Wayne and Tom and me look woefully misinformed, now everyone knows that this was your covert intention all along, and it sure doesn't show much respect for your larger audience on GCA to have dragged everyone interested in the very worthwhile topic through this cheap charade.   

So David, if you have information, which I also know that you do, I would suggest this;

Put it all together for everyone's dissemination...write a "In My Opinion" piece for Ran...send it to a golf journal and get it published.   If it adds to the history and understanding of Merion, that's great.   If you show that our understanding is wrong, I'm fine with that.   If it shows that Fred Pickering designed Merion, or Walter Travis, or CB Macdonald, or Mickey Mouse, that's ok too.   I don't have sacred cows...just object to tearing down idols without 100% proof.

As I mentioned in our email thread, I do believe that we're just beginning to work through all of the histories, especially of that very early period of American golf and I find that fascinating.   I had hoped we could collaborate more cooperatively, but you decided to come back here with a vengeful agenda, and I guess I fell for it.

Shame on me.  Congratulations are in order, I guess.   Nice job.

I'm done here with you.   The game's up.   The scoreboard shows 0 to 0.   We all lose.


p.s.   I promised Tom MacWood that I would post the rest of what he wrote to me about the manifests he found on Ancestry.com   

Here it is;

"Mike,
>>He is listed as George R. Crump. These lists are mostly hand written
>> so
>> with literally millions of records to transcribe you are going have
>> minor mistakes here and there (thats also true with the census records
>> and I don't see anyone questioning their creditability) . Because
>> there
>> are occasional errors I find that it is wise to alternate how one
>> searches for a person, not only alternating the spelling of the name
>> or
>> middle initial, but also searching by spouse or sibling or traveling
>> companion."

Like a lot of research it can be quite tedious and time
>> consuming but as you and Joe B know all the hours spent are often
>> rewarded.
>>
>> I've been searching these records for a couple of years I will tell
>> you
>> they are a remarkable resource. I have been able to track down the
>> movements of every important golf architecture figure in the last 100+
>> years, not only confirming what was already known but also discovering
>> some surprising new stuff (like the fact that Herbert Fowler came to
>> the US in 1913). From my point of view your attempt to discredit this
>> tool is clearly misinformed.
>>
>> TM



Sayonara, Dude...

[DMoriarty]

David,

Could none of the 800+ "H. Wilson"'s who came back from England between 1908 & 1912 be Hugh?   Maybe?  Maybe not?

Of the 831 that come up under an H Wilson only 13 are listed as Hugh Wilson 17 are listed as "H Wilson."   So we've gone from 831 to 30.   Throw out females and birthdays that arent even close and you've only got a few to actually look at.   Of those, none of them fit criteria I am concerned with, but you may want to pay the money to take a further look.   Personally, I dont like the site;  not as much information and very expensive.  Also, the British did not have nearly the motivation to keep track of who was leaving as the US did of who was arriving.   

Look David...several days ago I asked you very kindly to please come forward with any new information that you've alluded to.   As a researcher, I'm keenly interested, but I didn't want to have the same interpretive battles all over again over records that you think are 100% accurate and I believe are significantly incomplete, as well as wording of articles and timeframes.

However, we're back at square one, you've added absolutely nothing new (even though I KNOW you have stuff that you're holding in an attempt to make fools of some of us)  and I for one don't have either the time or the temperament for the game.

And yes, I do know it's a setup, designed to embarrass Tom and Wayne, revenge for past grievances, and probably to get me too at this point.   Nice that you have time for such pettiness.     Frankly, I had thought much more highly of you, even after all that past contentiousness we've had.   You know, I feared this was your plan from the start, but then I thought to myself..."nah...he's not that kind of a guy" 

I was wrong.

Sadly, the ironic truth is that even if you manage to make Wayne and Tom and me look woefully misinformed, now everyone knows that this was your covert intention all along, and it sure doesn't show much respect for your larger audience on GCA to have dragged everyone interested in the very worthwhile topic through this cheap charade.   

So David, if you have information, which I also know that you do, I would suggest this;

Put it all together for everyone's dissemination...write a "In My Opinion" piece for Ran...send it to a golf journal and get it published.   If it adds to the history and understanding of Merion, that's great.   If you show that our understanding is wrong, I'm fine with that.   If it shows that Fred Pickering designed Merion, or Walter Travis, or CB Macdonald, or Mickey Mouse, that's ok too.   I don't have sacred cows...just object to tearing down idols without 100% proof.

As I mentioned in our email thread, I do believe that we're just beginning to work through all of the histories, especially of that very early period of American golf and I find that fascinating.   I had hoped we could collaborate more cooperatively, but you decided to come back here with a vengeful agenda, and I guess I fell for it.

Shame on me.  Congratulations are in order, I guess.   Nice job.

I'm done here with you.   The game's up.   The scoreboard shows 0 to 0.   We all lose.

Mike, I have no idea what has gotten into you.   I have done nothing to you or anyone else that justifies this garbage.   Your behavior has become downright bizarre.

I had no idea that my decency and worth as a as a human being would be judged based on my prolificity. 

Absolutely ridiculous.

[TEPaul]

The Boys from Philly have a theory to present. It's also a theory of what David Moriarty may have some new evidence about with Merion even if at this point we have no idea at all what that might be or what he might have because he hasn't produced anything new even in theory that might explain some of the seeming inconsistencies we've been aware of for years that may be part of the Merion record.

My theory is that this whole connection with Macdonald and Merion's new course may've developed perhaps around the Lesley Cup in 1909 which was at Huntingdon Valley in Philadelphia. If Macdonald and/or Whigam played in it (we'll check that) some of the Merion players like Lesley and Griscom (or even Perrin) may've talked to Macdonald and/or Whigam about their plan to move from their Bryn Mawr course. I've playing in the Lesley Cup for about ten years and I know that very few players from any team play all the matches all the days so maybe some Merion guys like Griscom and Lesley who were obviously aware of what Macdonald had been doing for a few years at NGLA (although the course was a year or two from opening) got him to come over to the Ardmore land they were looking at and check it out.

Macdonald may've said that it looked OK and the Merion guys may've said they would like to basically do what he'd been doing at NGLA with a group of amateur sportsmen Merion members building the course and asked him to talk to the people from Merion they'd use (the to-be-formed Merion Construction Committee with Wilson leading it).

Macdonald might have said to get them to come to NGLA and meet with him and go over what he had and study the way he'd been doing NGLA.

Here's where I think this theory gets really interesting and could explain the truth about some of the apparent riddles and inconsistencies in the Merion history books we've been aware of for years:

Macdonald may've told the Merion guys to get a topo done of the Ardmore land and bring it up to NGLA for a visit.

Wilson may've done that with a few of the committee members in late 1910 or early 1911 (January and no later for a reason I'll give later). They may've gone over MACDONALD's template hole sketches from abroad that he had from as early as 1904 for NGLA and talked about how to fit some or all of them onto the Merion property using its natural features and construct some of their basic prinicples onto Merion's land. This could've been an attempt at a basic template hole routing scheme for Merion on the Merion topo Wilson brought with him to NGLA.

Macdonald may've even let Wilson bring his template hole sketches from abroad for NGLA back to Merion so the committee could study how to use them and their principles on the Ardmore land. Maybe what Merion has always thought were Wilson's sketches and plans and survey maps that he made while abroad were just Macdonald's for NGLA that Wilson borrowed and brought back from NGLA and New York, not GB.

If that's true then it would explain the question and riddle of why would Wilson bother to go abroad and do sketches for Merion East in 1912 if the course was already constructed and into its grow in phase at that time which lasted almost a year?

Maybe what the later Merion history writers got mixed up on was what they reported much later as a  Wilson trip abroad in 1910 was really just the Wilson visit to NGLA. And that would also explain the sketches and drawing that Wilson apparently used----eg they were not some he made abroad because he hadn't been there yet for Merion but they were Macdonald's for NGLA. Maybe it was even Macdonald's NGLA sketches that were lost in a Merion clubhouse flood which has been reported for years as how the Wilson sketches from abroad were lost.

This would also explain the inconsistency of Merion's later history writers thinking Wilson had sketches from abroad in 1910 and that he nearly went down in the Titanic on the way home. The Titanic would not go down until two years later in April of 1912. And we know that Wilson narrowly escaped coming home on the Titanic in his documented 1912 trip abroad.

We also thought Wilson in his report in 1916 of the creation of Merion got the date wrong when he said 1911 when we thoughh he must have meant 1910 (because of the long told Merion history books mention of a 1910 trip abroad). He may not have made a mistake in the date and if it was accurate he did say he studied great courses abroad 'LATER' (after 1911) which would obviously mean the 1912 trip.

There are a few more little inconsistencies in the Merion history books that this particular theory would really explain.

And lastly, much of the foregoing seems all the more plausible looking at Wilson's FIRST letter to Piper of the US Dept of Agriculture on Feb 1, 1911 when he introduces himself and tells Piper Macdonald asked him to get in touch to talk about agronomic.

The fact is Macdonald had had at least one massive agronomic grow-in failure at NGLA and he turned to Piper at the US Dept of Agriculture for advice.

The interesting thing about that first letter to Piper is Wilson says he has a topo of Merion he wants to show him so Piper can identify areas from it to take soil samples to send to DC for analysis. This letter is the first of approximately 1,500 generated in the next fourteen years (the first of the so-called Wilsons/Piper and Oakley "agronomy" letters.

We have no idea at this point if this basic theory which really would explain some of the little inconsistencies we've been aware of for years in Merion's record are even remotely in the same ballpark of what David Moriarty thinks he's come up with but we want to put this new theory of ours on record right now and state we will be looking into the credibilty and accuracy of any and all of it.

Maybe it's nothing and maybe it's something and maybe Wilson did go abroad for Merion only once in 1912. If that's true, this theory would explain almost everything, it seems to me. If he did go abroad in 1910 as the Merion history books have always explained then that's cool too and this particular theory would essentially be back out the window.

The other thing I'd like to say is if this theory does turn out to be true and these are the real facts involved in all of this it does very much support what we have claimed all along about the architectural history record of early Merion and that is that the two reports done in 1916 by Hugh Wilson and in 1926 by Alan Wilson that we've always relied on are true and accurate and that both of them give all the credit due Macdonald, both when and why, for his contribution to Merion at Ardmore.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Can you say, "blame the liberal media"?  

Hyperbole was not beyond these guys, certainly, but there is also a ton of good information in the old newspaper accounts.

However, they weren't reporting politics, or life and death shaking world events...they were reporting on a game that was supposed to be fun recreation, much as many here seem to think they had their priorities askew.  

Tom Paul,

I think that your theory is a very interesting possibility that does seem to fill in the historical gaps and explain some of the inconsistencies in the early reporting on Merion East.

However, I still don't know what that has to do with the course that's on the ground today, or even the course that was on the ground in 1916?    

It seems to me that any early fascination with creating template holes, or copies of those abroad was really very quickly found to be wanting and almost immediately revised, for whatever reasons those on the ground found that necessary and desirable.

[TEPaul]

"So, as a point of fact, did Wilson visit Chicago Golf Club?  Myopia?  Garden  City?"

Shivas:

As those were the three that Macdonald later claimed were the only good ones in America before NGLA and he was Wilson's initial architecture mentor and it was claimed that Wilson had studied the best here before building Merion I would assume he saw those.

Frankly, from the photographs we've seen of Macdonald's 1895 Chicago Golf Club, if Wilson had seen that one I doubt he would've kept Macdonald as a mentor!   

As for GCGC, since Wilson was a very fine player (the captain of the Princeton golf team) to assume he knew GCGC which isn't far from Philly or Princeton is completely logical.

As for Myopia, I believe it has always been the home course of the Havard golf team and Herbert Leeds was connected to Harvard. If Harvard played Princeton at home one could conclude the Princeton captain would know Myopia.

[Andy Hughes]

Maybe what the later Merion history writers got mixed up on was what they reported much later as a  Wilson trip abroad in 1910 was really just the Wilson visit to NGLA

Tom, interesting. If I have followed correctly, Mike laid out a fair number of newspaper articles that all made a point of saying Wilson went to GB and made his sketches before work began, and added that Wilson would have corrected the record if that was not the case.  Your theory would therefore fly in the face of those newspaper articles?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I guess one of the questions that jumps out at me from your theory is why Wilson wouldn't have disputed any of the local press reporting, although in retrospect, perhaps none of it jumped out at him as wholly inaccruate because they were written after May 1912?  

[TEPaul]

"However, I still don't know what that has to do with the course that's on the ground today, or even the course that was on the ground in 1916?"

Mike:

Don't worry about that you don't need to know all the details of that architectural phase and the next one and later. That phase is what noone knows as well as Wayne including the latter phase in the 1920s and later.

What we have pretty much been concentrating on with David Moriarty's threads and implications is the initial architectural phase of Merion East (1912-1915). 

I can absolutely guarantee you that Macdonald and Whigam had virtually nothing to do with the 1916 phase and the phase in the 1920s. Those ones were definitely Hugh Wilson and Flynn and then Flynn when Wilson died in 1925 and we have all Flynn's plans and hole drawings in real detail and that's what went on the ground.

How different those phases were style-wise is much of Wayne's ongoing point about how different Merion was style-wise after 1916 and on from the National School's style of architecture. 

[Andy Hughes]

We're once again being asked to believe that men like Evans and Tillinghast and Smith who knew Wilson personally and were there at the inception had no idea what was going on, or that Hugh Wilson personally did nothing to disavow these rumors of both his golf architectural studies, his voyages, his knowledge, or his architectural achievements so as to be an implicit liar by omission
Mike, you said the above yesterday, and nothing's really changed since then other than Tom's new theory.  No reason for you to get weak-kneed now about it (..'although in retrospect, perhaps none of it jumped out at him as wholly inaccruate because they were written after May 1912?')

While I am afraid I put much less stock in the accuracy of those articles then you, there is something to your general sentiment.

[TEPaul]

Tom,

I guess one of the questions that jumps out at me from your theory is why Wilson wouldn't have disputed any of the local press reporting, although in retrospect, perhaps none of it jumped out at him as wholly inaccruate because they were written after May 1912?    

Mike:

Dispute what? I still can't figure out when those stories of him going to Europe before the East got build first started. I guess we could try to run any of them back as far as possible to find out, like the seven months (somebody may've said "several" months and at some point it turned into "seven" months). As for his doing drawings himself abroad for Merion East I can't figure out how early that story started.

Maybe, one of the reasons he wrote his creation report in 1916 and Alan wrote his in 1926 was to keep setting the record straight. However, with Alan's report it really does sound like Hugh went abroad before 1911.

Maybe, he did do that and it's just a matter of noone at this point has found proof of it.

This theory we just presented is intended to explain why it might be plausible that 1912 was his first trip and that the Wilsons' reports really are as accurate as we always thought they were regarding the creation of Merion and that they gave Macdonald all the credit he was due and both when and why.

It's just a theory and a seemingly pretty interesting one, in my opinion. Maybe it is one similar to something that David Moriarty was working on but the fact is to date he hasn't offered any part of it yet. Maybe it's the same and we will all be in agreement on the architectural attribution of Merion from now on or maybe he has something entirely different to offer and far more interesting.

Who knows, but it would be nice if he'd offer something new since that's what he's been implying he would do for about a week or more.

[Rich Goodale]

Maybe what the later Merion history writers got mixed up on was what they reported much later as a  Wilson trip abroad in 1910 was really just the Wilson visit to NGLA

Tom, interesting. If I have followed correctly, Mike laid out a fair number of newspaper articles that all made a point of saying Wilson went to GB and made his sketches before work began, and added that Wilson would have corrected the record if that was not the case.  Your theory would therefore fly in the face of those newspaper articles?

Maybe anything to the East of the Delaware was "abroad" for Philadelpians.....?

[RJ_Daley]

Along the lines of throwing out alternate theories and chronologies, as TEP does in reply #57,  did it ever occur to you guys that Wilson's, MacDonald, and various founding members of these clubs, didn't really care what inaccuracies were reported, nor how the legend and lore of the founding of these clubs got jumbled up.  That all they really wanted to do was play golf at their new wonderful course; and who did what, wasn't all that relavant to them?

To take a modern analogy of the vision, developement and who should get credit, etc., think about the modern day masterpiece, Sand Hills. 

Whose idea was it anyway, Ron Whitten's?  Could you make a case that in the 1980s, Ron was writing and thinking about a sand hills golf course and DY got the idea from Ron?  That Dye passed on it, but was instrumental in the siting of the SHGC (lord help us if someone ever comes up with the manifest from Greyhound bus lines, or a airport landing record from North Platte, or Mullen motel bill that shows Dye and Whitten went there and stayed there in 1986!  )  --- just kidding... no such exists that we know of...

But, I hope you see my point.  What if the constellation map was more Dick, Dan and Dave's work than Bill and Ben's.  (again, don't get any panties in a wad, I'm only trying to through out the idea of how things or perceptions could get jumbled and become a different circumstance than how something actually got accomplished)

What if certain aspects of the legend and lore of the founding of SHGC are accepted as conventional wisdom, and the founder DY, don't really care what the legends and lore spinners say, as it really just isn't all that big of a deal to him, and the only thing that counts is servicing the fairly obscure or reclusive national members, keeping up the facility, etc.  What if all the little on-going discussions of folks like us (wanna bees, guests, fanatics for GCA who might get to play there a time or two in your life) , and who might perpetuate certain misinformed realities of how it actually was, just are ignored in their inaccuracies and allowed to go with what they blather; and who in the founding circles really cares, except to say that there exists this really great golf course, and what is important is that it exists for the members? 

Is it in any way possible that misperceptions about the founding of Merion weren't corrected, because no one was all that concerned with them at the time?

[TEPaul]

"Maybe what the later Merion history writers got mixed up on was what they reported much later as a  Wilson trip abroad in 1910 was really just the Wilson visit to NGLA

Tom, interesting. If I have followed correctly, Mike laid out a fair number of newspaper articles that all made a point of saying Wilson went to GB and made his sketches before work began, and added that Wilson would have corrected the record if that was not the case.  Your theory would therefore fly in the face of those newspaper articles?"



AHughes:

What I've never been able to establish (I don't think anyone has yet) is how far back reporting, newspaper or otherwise, such as Wilson UNQUESTIONALBLY went abroad BEFORE Merion East went into construction in the spring of 1911 WENT, OR how far back this story goes that Wilson brought his own sketches and drawings back from abroad WENT.

If both of those stories went all the way back to the time Wilson was alive, and stated that unquestionably, then, yes, I think he and the rest would have attempted to correct them as not being accurate.

The first time I see those things mentioned as apparent fact is in some of the more recent Merion history books.

I think this theory of ours explains why there was no need for him to correct those stories if they DID NOT unquestionably go back as far as being contemporaneous with him.

I don't even know how to check that other than to attempt to check anything and everything to see if those stories appear somewhere during his lifetime perhaps. My sense is they didn't, my sense is they came in later interpretations but simply by the misunderstanding of some old facts and times and places.

I really don't want to see these Merion threads turn into some tit-for-tat accusations amongst researchers today, as all researchers and history writers of any time are only as good as their theories and how well they can support them with whatever documentation is available and logical or plausible or of course provable.

Even the very best researchers are prone to mistakes for all kinds of innocent reasons and I hope this doesn't turn into just that subject.

To me the larger point and really THE only point here is did the Wilsons in their two reports accruately portray the architectural credit due Macdonald/Whigam for what they really did do for Merion at Ardmore?

I, for one, think they did no matter when Wilson went abroad or whether he did drawings himself over there or just used Macdonald's that he did years before for NGLA.

[TEPaul]

"Along the lines of throwing out alternate theories and chronologies, as TEP does in reply #57,  did it ever occur to you guys that Wilson's, MacDonald, and various founding members of these clubs, didn't really care what inaccuracies were reported, nor how the legend and lore of the founding of these clubs got jumbled up.  That all they really wanted to do was play golf at their new wonderful course; and who did what, wasn't all that relavant to them?"


RJ;

I don't really believe that. I think those people back then did care about the inaccuracy of these kinds of things if it was obvious to them. I say that because we do have some interesting examples of them asking for corrections of reported facts surrounding golf courses and getting those kinds of correction in the press.

The most obvious of them I'm aware of is Pine Valley's president, Howard Perrin, asking Tillinghast to correct a story of Eugene Grace anonymously gifting Pine Valley at a particular time. Tillie apologized and complied in spades!

[Mike_Cirba]

Andy,

Nope, I'm not going soft on this.   If Wilson knew what was being reported locally in the press for all those years and it was in fact an inaccurate fabrication of either his voyages, timelines, involvement, knowledge, or work, then in fact he was lying by omission.   I'm just suggesting that Tom Paul's theory may have given him a bit more leeway in how we originally interpreted those articles, and how Wilson might have during his time.

RJ,

I really can't agree with that knowing the depth of golf-related incestuousness going on around here during that time.   The writers were in fact their friends and golf companions...guys like Evans, Tillinghast, WP Smith...were not only the players but also the golf writers for the local rags.

They were all very attuned to what each other was doing, where each other were going, and what was hot, what was not, and were about as closeknit a group of collaborators and even conspirators as one can imagine.  

It was quite remarkable, really.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

While I have no idea of how or when the "sketches" story began, or even that calculation that he was there for six or seven months.

However, I do think these three accounts are very important here;

Philadelphia Public Ledger – 10/12/13 – William Evans

“Hugh I. Wilson, chairman of the Green Committee at the Merion Cricket Club and who is responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line, has been Mr. Geist’s right hand man and has laid out the Sea View course.  Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course at Merion was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect.

Philly Inquirer 12/06/14 – Joe Bunker

“Hugh I. Wilson, for a number of year’s chairman of the Green Committee at Merion Cricket Club has resigned.  He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country. “

Philly Inquirer 4/23/16 – Joe Bunker

“Nearly every hole on the course (Merion East) has been stiffened (for the US Am) so that in another month or two it will resemble a really excellent championship course.  Hugh Wilson is the course architect and Winthrop Sargent is chairman of the Green Committee.  These two men have given a lot of time and attention to the changes and improvements.  Before anything was done to the course originally, Mr. Wilson visited every golf course of any note not only in Great Britain, but in this country as well, with the result that Merion’s East Course is the last word in golf course architecture.  It has been improved each year until not it is almost perfect from a golf standpoint.


We all know now who William Evans was and how connected he was.

After having gone through a number of years of volumnious articles by Joe Bunker, we first thought that it was Tillinghast (as did Philip Young at first, but then reconsidered and now believes it was not) given his depth of "insider" knowledge about all things Philadelphia golf, and incredibly about the daily most mundane activities going on at Pine Valley.

Right now our best guess is that it was William Poultney Smith, because we came across an article where Tillinghast mentioned the WP Smith wrote the first critical articles about golf and golf courses in Philadelphia.

In any case, both of these writers unquestionably knew Hugh Wilson on a personal basis, and their writings were in prominent papers, and I have no doubt in my mind that Wilson was aware that these things had been written about him.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I'm definitely not saying Wilson could not have gone abroad in 1910 as the two Tolhurst history books report he did. All I'm saying is if the 1912 trip was the only trip he made abroad this theory I've suggested would very easily explain how some of the facts reported about Wilson later like his drawings from abroad he brought back for the ORIGINAL construction of Merion East were a misinterpretation.

I do not necessarily subscribe to the theory of some on here that if some people on here can't find him on ship manifests before 1912 he could not have gone over there in 1910.

I think one place we may look next to possibly shed some light on his trip or trips abroad is that Merion 1910 annual report where Tolhurst claims this idea of forming a construction committee and sending him abroad was mentioned.

Some clubs have their annual meetings around the end of Jan or beginning of Feb. where they offer the report of the previous year so maybe it meant the committee was formed and the decision was made in early January to send him abroad at some point.

This would square with Wilson's own 1916  report in which he mentioned 1911 (we've thought for some years he got the date wrong and meant 1910) and that he saw courses abroad 'later'.

Wilson did get one date wrong in his report. He may've typoed the wrong year in something he mentioned about the West course.

[TEPaul]

"Is it in any way possible that misperceptions about the founding of Merion weren't corrected, because no one was all that concerned with them at the time?"


RJ:

I think definitely. While I doubt any of them back then would've put up with some flagrant inaccuracy in reporting, I think if any of them back then could see the importance some of us lunatics today on here assign to the meaning of things reported and the meaning of the words and terms used back then they would absolutely shake their heads in amazement or just flat-ass fall over laughing! 
 
 
 

[Phil_the_Author]

Is it possible that the problem lay not in the reporting but in the interpretation of it?

For example, in each of the three quotes, and in fact in all of the cited references used in these discussions, the interpretation of the e.g. phrase "before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country..." has been taken to mean that Wilson made a SPECIFIC trip for that SPECIFIC purpose.

Might it rather not be that Wilson had made a number of trips around the U.S. and abroad where he visited and played courses, becoming enamored with their design principles? Frankly, isn't this what all of us on here do?

I am wondering about this because of the dual reference to visiting courses in this country. This is something that we know that he defitinitely did during the first decade of the 20th century as a competitor in tournaments of a local and national nature and even as a member in team competitions representing Philadelphia.

We can document with absolute certainty that Tilly never went back to Scotland after 1901 and yet he took great pride with features done in imitation of the great courses of Scotland in his first creation at Shawnee, and that opened for play 10 years later in 1911. He even went so far as to claim priority for using the "Mid-Surrey" scheme of mounding there before anyone else in America did.

Might Hugh Wilson have been a man whose secret desire was to be a golf course architect rather than a maritime insurance executive? He didn't stop with the design of Merion, but these thread's have also mentioned several other courses that were done by him. I ask this question because it would also explain his making sketches of holes on many courses that he visited, or are we saying that he took up drawing and sketching just for the purpose of studying golf courses in order to design Merion? Rather, isn't it far more likely that he had been drawing for a number of years?

Finally, once again consider something I mentioned the other day. It is very difficult to find mentions of Wilson COMPETING in tournaments after 1908 or so. WHY?

Could it be that before this he was too involved with the game, being indulged and supported in this by his family, and then was pressured to finally concentrate on the insurance business?

That scenario would also explain many things such as why shipping manifests have not been found for him as maybe he went overseas in 1902 or 04 or 06... David Moriarity himself, in repsonse to my questioning about not being able to find Tilly's records, said that in the early years the records are incomplete and that only AFTER an act of congress in 1907 were specific and actual records of all manifests maintained.

This interpretive supposition could be way, way wrong as well... but it does make sense and answers questions


 

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

No...I understand that your theory doesn't discount that Wilson may have gone over prior to 1912.

I'm just pointing out some of the extemporaneous sources who claimed he did go overseas on an extended visit prior to building the first course and that these men definitely knew Wilson personally.  

Philip,

I think that's an interesting hypothesis.

When I saw that response to you saying that after Congress passed an act in 1907 things got tighter and presumably more accurate with manifests my initial thought was, "what if his trip overseas happened before then and wasn't really directly associated with the new property of Merion whatsoever?"

What if he just loved to play golf and see cool courses, much like Tillinghast and Crump?   He went to Princeton, he had some serious connections...heck, even the wife of a former President of the US was at his wedding.   

Revisionist history might try to tie it all in a neat package as all directed towards educating himself to design Merion, but it could have been just that he got the golf-course education in his years in college at Princeton and in his 20s and early 30s through his Maritime Insurance business, and then he designed Merion.   No connection between the two whatsoever, except his visit to Charlie and the discussion of the great holes that possibly they both had seen at that point.

Interesting..

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil/Tom

One more thought...

Do any of the accounts of Wilson visiting with Macdonald mention specifically that Wilson had never been overseas prior or seen the courses in person?

Wasn't the value the actual sketches, and discussion about the principles?

What if they had BOTH seen and played these courses prior, much like Noel Freeman visiting with George Bahto, and then comparing notes about Deal and Royal St. George's?

[TEPaul]

"I'm just pointing out some of the extemporaneous sources...."

MikeC:

God-dang-it to hell, will you please quit saying that? You've been doing it for a week now!

Guys like Dan Kelly and Shivas and maybe even David Moriarty are such sticklers for words and precise meaning they will positively freak out over your gross INEXACTITUDE!

It's contemporaneous, not extemporaneous!!  Unless, of course, these reporters you've been quoting were just spouting off in print the first damn thing that came into their heads.  



Have you not seen the first paragraph of Wilson's 1916 report where he talks about the visit to NGLA? If not, I'll post it on here. I posted it a year ago on some of those Merion threads, along with the pertinent parts of Alan Wilson's 1926 report.

Or better yet why don't you scan the appropriate parts in here, Wayne? Isn't that what a pissboy is supposed to do?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Can you extemporaneously post the damn thing on here already!   Time's a wastin', man.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Can you extemporaneously post the damn thing on here already! Time's a wastin', man."


Definitely not! I have far more important things to do like watch the Masters. 

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