[JESII]

Tom,

I think the issue is with the Hugh Wilson introduction in the last two paragraphs. Which course is the first "new course" in that section?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

It is my distinct impression that the "new" Merion course Evans is referring to is the East. When this article was written the West course was in the beginning of its approximately nine month "grow in" period. Furthermore, we know very well who Clarence Geist was and I very much doubt he asked Wilson to design Seaview for him on the strength the West course which at that point had seen no play and wouldn't until May of 1914. It was the East course that made Wilson's reputation and I don't think there has ever been any doubt about that.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I think the issue is with the Hugh Wilson introduction in the last two paragraphs. Which course is the first "new course" in that section?

Jim,

Could you describe the palatial clubhouse of the Merion West course in detail?   I believe it was built to house 40 cars.   AND...it was scheduled to open on May 30th of the next year, along with the course!!!   

Sorry, i'll stop being a pr*ck but some of this gets ridiculous.


The William Evans article is from October 12, 1913.  It was likely based on info he received in September and possibly even wrote it in late September, but even if October, no matter.

Just one year prior in mid-September 1912 the NEW East course at Merion had opened.   Since the inception of the club, everyone in the Philadelphia area who Evans was writing for knew that the membership had played at another site on an old, now outmoded (Haskell ball) course for 16 years, or roughly as long as golf existed in Philadelphia!

The NEW East course was immediately hailed, rounds at Merion went through the roof, the press and local golfers rejoiced that Philly finally had something that could become a much needed "Championship course".   There are a ton of articles at the time citing the need for one.

The East course becomes so popular that it's now overcrowded, and a limit is put on the membership, but demand remains strong.

The club scrambles and finds a piece of land a mile up the road, and hurriedly begins plans to build another 18 holes.   The West course is mentioned in the press, but not as the new darling of the fickle Philly community, but in reference to the overcrowding caused by the popularity of the NEW East course.

The West course would open for play a full NINE months after this article was written, and at this stage had no bunkers and no grass.

And yes, sometimes they did write about courses before they opened, but not much about the course itself.

As you can see from this very article, the thrust was about this palatial clubhouse, and new CLUB that Geist was building...not much about the course at all except to say in faint praise that comments have been "warm".

And that was the usual thing...the only course to get a GREAT deal of hype, because it was unique right from the start and involved so many of the heavy hitters and press right from the start was Pine Valley.

The others...mostly mentioned in passing.

[Mike_Cirba]

And Jim...

Not to belabor this, but even if we take the fantastical stretch of imagination to believe that Evans was talking about the West course as the "new" course, let's remember that it's now 1913 as he's writing.

He says, very clearly, "..some years ago before the new course at Merion was constructed.." to describe the timeframe of Wilson's trip to study the great courses.

He didn't say this year, he didn't say last year, he didn't even say two years ago...

"Some years ago" minimally means at least two, and very possibly more.

William Evans knew Hugh Wilson and Robert Lesley very, very well.  He was not some schmo reporter from the outside...he was a major member of GAP.   


Perhaps he was temporarily delusional from taking that Turkish Bath in the Merion West clubhouse. 

[Mike_Cirba]

. . . when he states that "Mr Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer" in his 1/13 article, it's clear that he's talking about Summer, 1911 or prior, and that his article was written prior to January but published after the year ended.

Creative interpretation, but as clear as mud.

In the winter of 1912-1913, "last summer" meant summer of 1911 or prior??

David,

The answer my friend, is blowin' in the wind.

Look at the pictures accompanying the article.


http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag93m.pdf

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

George Crump's 1910 trip does not come up in any fashion on the "Findyourpast.com" site, mispelling or no.

This is the site with the manifests of every ship leaving Great Britain.

This is the same site where 800 "H. Wilson"s are found between 1908-12.

I believe that if you as a legal professional look at these manifests for proof of anything you'll be astounded at their lack of consistency, completeness, readability, and very likely, accuracy.  If memory serves, they were compiled as hundreds of people were boarding a ship, sometimes quite hurriedly I'd imagine, by a clerk level person of the shipping company.   I'm sure they didn't like the bureaucratic requirement of logging everyone very much...thank God they didn't have to go thru our airport security process!

I can't imagine you standing in court with one in hand as evidence and feeling very confident. 

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

If William Evans was actually on the board of GAP that makes him an insider beyond question. It's important to make the distinction between someone who just belonged to a club that was a member of GAP and someone on the board of GAP.

[Mike_Cirba]

MikeC:

If William Evans was actually on the board of GAP that makes him an insider beyond question. It's important to make the distinction between someone who just belonged to a club that was a member of GAP and someone on the board of GAP.

Tom,

He was one of two GAP reps from Lansdowne where he was chairman of the Green Committee.   He was at the annual GAP meetings and we have a pic of him there.   

[TEPaul]

As to who "Far and Sure" was, I can't remember where I read it recently (but it's probably in some article in a file here in my office), it seems for those who wrote for American Golfer regionally, it was Walter Travis (The Editor) who assigned the regional reporters the psuedonyms they used.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

That's William Evans in the third row, seven men to the right of Hugh Wilson and just behind Robert Lesley's left shoulder.



Oh yeah..that's also Clarence Geist down to his left a few folks. 

And Tillinghast over there to his right...and Ellis Gimbel...Winthrop Sargent (chairman of Green Committee at Merion)

Oh yes...he was an insider's insider!!   

[Joe Bausch]

MikeC:

If William Evans was actually on the board of GAP that makes him an insider beyond question. It's important to make the distinction between someone who just belonged to a club that was a member of GAP and someone on the board of GAP.

Tom,

He was one of two GAP reps from Lansdowne where he was chairman of the Green Committee.   He was at the annual GAP meetings and we have a pic of him there.   

Ah, phooey, we know these Philly guys are capable of fabricating stuff.  Hell, Cirba probably photoshopped in Evans in that one great picture we found while going through the GAP achives.  

[john_stiles]

Crump's 1910 departure wasn't in the manifests but it was in the newspaper.

A little more microfilm  'readin' versus a data base search engine would probably find Hugh Wilson's trip mentioned in the newspaper.      Just like Crump's.

[TEPaul]

JohnS:

This Wilson trip or trips abroad really is fasinating me, not so much as to what it might mean about who really did design Merion but simply due to the fact that one really does wonder where and how and why the ages old historical record is how it is.

Here are a few of the interesting items that could use some investigation as to when or if they occurred.

1. Why Wilson's trip in preparation for the creation of Merion has been reported (in relatively recent Merion history books) as taking place in 1910 and for seven months

2. This story about him coming home with all kinds of drawings and plans and surveyor's maps he collected abroad.

3. The exact date or even the year he and perhaps members of his committee visited Macdonald for that well known two day "study" session at NGLA.

4. The significance of when the Merion Committee to design the course was formed as well as the meanings from that so-called 1910 Annual Report of Merion.

There is an historic oddity that still fascinates and that is for many years the story was extant at Merion or in its history writing that on returning from his 1910 trip abroad in preparation to do Merion Wilson almost sailed on the Titanic. For some years now we and Merion have been aware that that was impossible as The Titanic went down in 1912. His now documented 1912 trip explains the origins of that Titanic story because he really did almost sail on The Titanic in 1912!

Also, Mike Cirba's recent find of a Hugh Wilson and wife and children and servants from Southampton to Buenos Aires despite the inconsistencies on the ship manifest on nationalities should probably not be dismissed as easily as it has been. It is not inconceivable that on a seven month trip abroad with wife and family Wilson may've gone to Buenos Aires and then returned home from there. It is an undeniable historic fact that many of the people from that time of his type were world travelers so obviously they did make trips of that type, not to mention that Wilson's business was maritime ship insurance which is just another reason that traveling abroad by ship is something that was probaby not a rare occurrence in his professional life.

[DMoriarty]

A few questions for everyone who is still holding on to this notion of two trips:

1.    Is there a single iota of evidence (hard fact or not)  that Wilson took TWO trips to study? 

2. Is there a even a single contemporaneous reference to a Wilson study trip written BEFORE his 1912 trip?

Any golf gossip or society articles?  Any club reports?   Any statements by H. Wilson or his brother?   Any post card?  Anything?

Remember, you guys didnt even hatch the two trip supposition until AFTER I verified the 1912 Hugh I. Wilson trip.

 Anyone??

_______________________
Mike Cirba,

 You keep bringing up these shipping manifests.  Presumably, your logic is as follows:

1.  You have done what you feel is an extensive search on a single British Website and you failed to locate any travel manifests indicating that Hugh I. Wilson or George A. Crump traveled in the relevant time period.   

2.  You therefore conclude that currently existing shipping manifests are astoundingly incomplete,  inconsistent, unreadable and inaccurate.

With all due respect,  a better conclusion is that your research is thus far incomplete or flawed. 

According a shipping manifest filed pursuant to an act of the U.S. Congress, Crump and Baker departed from Liverpool for NYC in December of 1910.   

According to another manifest filed pursuant to an act of the U.S. Congress, Wilson returned from France in May of 1912.

I've said this before but it is worth repeating,  So far, for every otherwise verifiable trip to the United States of which I am aware, every single manifest has been found by me or someone else.    

I can't vouch that the manifest records in the United States are 100% complete, or that they are 100% accurate, but they are absolutely incredible in their scope and accuracy.

To assume a trip took place because of an oft repeated legend or simply because you and other really, really hope it happened does not cut it.   

And Mike, I didn't realize you were that old, but your memory[??] is not serving you well here.   Record keeping was not casually or inconsistently done on these ships, but was much more arduous that you imagine, at least on our side of the pond.    Current immigration issues pale in comparison to the ones that existed around 1910, and they were very careful about the process.    Shipping manifests were kept and filed pursuant to an Act of Congress.  Compared to Ellis Island, our current domestic airport security checkpoints were likely a breeze.


WHERE ARE THE HARD FACTS INDICATING THAT A TRIP TOOK PLACE BEFORE 1912?

  So far I have seen none.

________________________
As for this business of the article 10/1913 article, please read what I write, not what Mike Cirba thinks I think.   

I wrote that the two sentences in question were ambiguous.   I brought it up because Mike Cirba included one of those sentences in his list of items supporting a conclusion about the EAST Course.   The two sentences in question definitely DO NOT REFER TO MERION EAST.   
________________________

Joe Bausch writes:  "I have NO IDEA how David can be misinterpreting what Evans has written."

Really Joe?  NO IDEA?  I am surprised if this is the case.   

By this point Merion West had been built, had been growing in for five months, and had been gossiped about in the Philadelphia newspapers.   Wouldn't have virtually everyone following golf in Philadelphia been well aware of its existence by this point? 

Yet you do not think that my reading has any support whatsoever? The article is not at all open to the interpretation I have given it.   Even though we know he took the 1912 trip at least a year and one half before the article was written?  Even though no hard facts exist indicating an earlier trip?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

The trip Wilson took sometime between January and April 1912 was clearly not the trip to study golf courses that these writers mentioned.  Maritime Insurance matters was his profession, and I'm quite sure that after taking an earlier lengthy voyage, having spent the past year on building the course, and getting it ready for seeding in the fall he would have been behind in business matters.

It would make no sense for it to be for any number of reasons, not the least of which is can you imagine a bleaker time of year to go study golf courses in Great Britain?

Or a more dangerous time of year to travel for recreational purposes?!?!

The written accounts say he spent the summer months, not the winter.

I'm also sure it was "downtime" in the construction of Merion East as it was also the middle of WINTER in Philadelphia during those months.  I'm quite sure that work progressed as normal in Philly here...probably into December, but generally, after living here for 20+ years, January, February, and March get pretty ugly weather-wise.   

I'm quite sure the course got seeded in the fall, and everyone was waiting for spring to continue the work.

I could go back and address each of your questions one more time, including the absolutely ridiculous one that Evan's is talking about Merion West, but instead I'll willl say this;

The only reason that Tom MacWood found the Crump manifest in the 1910 article is simply because he had a travelling companion who was found...not because somehow, miraculously, Crump turned up on a search engine.  If Crump had travelled alone neither you or Tom would have EVER found that record.

If it's that touchy, or that faulty, then we surely cannot judge our inability to find a Hugh Wilson manifest as remotely near sufficient burden of proof.  How do we know he's not one of the 800+ "H. Wilson's" leaving England between 1908 and 1912?

If your entire theory rests on the hypothesis that Wilson didn't sail before 1912, as I was afraid that it might, and you have to rely on us believing that William Evans was talking about the Merion West course in his 1913 article, or that "some years ago before Merion was constructed" actually means less than a year ago (you claim that Merion West was constructed in spring 1913...you can't have it both ways), then I think the other "new evidence" you say you have had better be really, REALLY good. 
 
You might need actual video footage at this stage. 

[Mike_Cirba]

If you think business matters weren't playing on his mind at that time, consider how crazed it must have been when he finally did get the course opened in the fall of 1912 and then by the spring they asked him to do it all again, this time in under a year!

At the same time, he was doing design work for Ellis Gimbel at Philmont, he was designing and building Seaview with Clarence Geist...Robert Lesley asked for another course at Merion..Lesley put him on a GAP committee charged with trompsing around Fairmount Park in Philly and recommendnig sites for a public golf course..he was SWAMPED BY THESE INDUSTRY CAPTAINS BECAUSE HE WAS THE LOCAL EXPERT WHO HAD GONE OVERSEAS TO STUDY GOLF COURSES!!!!!

He was also neglecting business and it was weighing on him.

I didn't add the last sentence of his resignation article, but to give everyone some idea of what was going on with this guy at the time, let me spell it out here;

Philly Inquirer 12/06/14 – Joe Bunker

“Hugh I. Wilson, for a number of year’s chairman of the Green Committee at Merion Cricket Club has resigned.  He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country.  Pressure of business compels him to give up the chairmanship.“

[TEPaul]

"He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country."

MikeC:

Since I really don't get the relevance of this trip argument and never have I never paid that much attention to the exact wording of what Billy Bunker reported there in that 1914 article.

Given how much more relied on newspaper reporting was back then for information than it may be today, it seems to me if The Philadelphia Inquirer mentioned Wilson went abroad before the first course was built and Wilson or anyone connectd to Merion read that knowing that was not the case they definitely would've asked the Inquirer to print a correction.

God knows Tillie got flagged on something he wrote about Pine Valley for a lot less than that.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

I believe it is May 1912, not April.   

We know it is clear to you.  And that my version does not make sense to you.  And that you are sure of everything you write.  And that you interpret everything to support your version, even it means reading something as simple as "last summer" as really meaning two summers ago, or even longer.   

These are all your opinion.  You have yours and I have mine.   What I would like to see are your facts.   Not interpretation, speculation, conjecture, or legend, BUT HARD FACTS. 

As far as I can tell you have absolutely NO HARD FACTS.  NONE.


As for the Manifests.  You are probably wrong about how MacWood found the Crump manifest and definitely wrong about how I found it.   But even you had been correct, my point stands.    MacWood found it.  I found it.  Your inability to find it notwithstanding, the historical record is accessible with a little digging and some creative research.     

As for your usual implication about how high the bar is for me and how I am relying so much on these records, we've all heard it before.   I am sure that some of you would not be convinced by video.   

But Mike, this reentry into the manifest issue is your doing, not mine.   I wish you hadn't opened up the can again, but you did.  And since you did, why not offer me HARD FACTS supporting your post hoc "two trips" theory?   




What

 tha

. . . when the Merion Committee to design the course was formed . . .

A Committee to design the course??    Do tell.   I am aware of the Site Committee and the Construction Committee but not the Design Committee.   

I know you must be referring to the latter committee, but I dont want Joe or others to suffer any more misperceptions of what we know and what we don't know.   

Unless you have evidence otherwise, The relevant sources establish that Hugh Wilson chaired the "Construction Committee" and was charged with constructing the course.






There is an historic oddity that still fascinates and that is for many years the story was extant at Merion or in its history writing that on returning from his 1910 trip abroad in preparation to do Merion Wilson almost sailed on the Titanic. For some years now we and Merion have been aware that that was impossible as The Titanic went down in 1912. His now documented 1912 trip explains the origins of that Titanic story because he really did almost sail on The Titanic in 1912!

Also, Mike Cirba's recent find of a Hugh Wilson and wife and children and servants from Southampton to Buenos Aires despite the inconsistencies on the ship manifest on nationalities should probably not be dismissed as easily as it has been. It is not inconceivable that on a seven month trip abroad with wife and family Wilson may've gone to Buenos Aires and then returned home from there. It is an undeniable historic fact that many of the people from that time of his type were world travelers so obviously they did make trips of that type, not to mention that Wilson's business was maritime ship insurance which is just another reason that traveling abroad by ship is something that was probaby not a rare occurrence in his professional life.
[/quote]

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

All of these stories were in the press both extemporaneous to events, as well as through his all too short lifetime.

Hugh Wilson would have had to have been both a liar and a fraud if he really didn't design both courses at Merion and go to study the great courses in Great Britain AND the US before designing the first one as was reported.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

One thing I have never known is when this seven months abroad was first reported no matter what year it took place. His 1912 trip could not have been more than three months tops and possibly a lot less than that.

The other thing I find hard to believe is why Wilson would've done all those drawings abroad in preparation to build Merion East if he did that in 1912 after the course was constructed and in its year long grow-in phase.

I also don't know how far back the reports go of those drawings and plans of his from abroad which are clearly lost now probably in a clubhouse flood.

[David Kelly]

The only reason that Tom MacWood found the Crump manifest in the 1910 article is simply because he had a travelling companion who was found...not because somehow, miraculously, Crump turned up on a search engine.  If Crump had travelled alone neither you or Tom would have EVER found that record.

Mike,

I don't know why you write this because anyone can go on ancestry.com (I used the Ancestry Library Edition) and search the manifests for George Crump arriving sometime between 1909 and 1911.  And in 30 seconds you get this:

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I say that because I searched for him on the site Rich Goodale recommended that has all the return trips from Great Britain and it wasn't available.

I also say that because when I asked Tom MacWood about not being able to find Crump's visit he replied that he used Ancestry.com but also had to dig hard there,

"Mike,
>>He is listed as George R. Crump. These lists are mostly hand written
>> so
>> with literally millions of records to transcribe you are going have
>> minor mistakes here and there (thats also true with the census records
>> and I don't see anyone questioning their creditability) . Because
>> there
>> are occasional errors I find that it is wise to alternate how one
>> searches for a person, not only alternating the spelling of the name
>> or
>> middle initial, but also searching by spouse or sibling or traveling
>> companion."

I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him here, but yes, there are issues with the ability to scan handwritten, inconsistent, and incomplete logs 100 years later.

The fact that one didn't even need to have their first name listed seems to me to be a HUGE problem in determining data validity.

No one has yet answered why it couldn't be one of the 800+ "H. Wilson"'s who came from Great Britain from 1908-1912?

[DMoriarty]

I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him here, but yes, there are issues with the ability to scan handwritten, inconsistent, and incomplete logs 100 years later.

The fact that one didn't even need to have their first name listed seems to me to be a HUGE problem in determining data validity.

No one has yet answered why it couldn't be one of the 800+ "H. Wilson"'s who came from Great Britain from 1908-1912?

You seem to read every small hurdle as a HUGE problem rendering successful research impossible.   In reality, as MacWood's private message to you exemplifies, it usually just takes time, effort, creativity, and an understanding of the limitations and attributes of the various sources.   Every source has limitations, but that doesnt mean we should all just throw up our hands and claim that it is impossible to know.   

Take your 800+ H. Wilson's you keep citing, as if it were some extraordinarily large number.  It isn't.  In fact in the time you have spent on gca.com today, I'll bet you could have looked at each and every manifest for all 800 names.   Of course you wouldn't have to do this, as you can throw out the vast majority easily enough.   

Of the 800+  many are women.  Some are Henry or Herbert.  Some are not traveling to America.   Some are not United States citizens.  Some are traveling at times when we know Wilson was in the U.S.   Some are traveling with family members and domestic staff that do not match Hugh Wilson's.    Some are too young.  Some are too old.  Some are Pipe Fitters.  Some are Teachers.  Some are Doctors.   Some live outside of the Philadelphia area.  Almost all are a combination of many of these things.   

Take Scottish Hugh Wilson traveling to South America from England with the wrong servants and  too many daughters.  This the best alternate Hugh Wilson you could come up with?     That alone tells me that your stack of 800+  H. Wilson's is not nearly as full of potential matches as you imply.   

But I already knew that, because I have done the research.  And I have one match.  Hugh I. Wilson of Philadelphia, aged 32, from France in May 1912.   

Is it possible that someone will eventually find HARD FACTS supporting a notion of a second trip??  Anything is possible, and I could very well have missed something somewhere.    But until hard evidence is found, this supposition of a second trip is frivolous, at best.   

Without hard evidence there is nothing left to talk about.  Just wishful thinking.   

[TEPaul]

Shivas said:

"If we're going to focus on anything, we ought to focus on the silly, thoughtless hyperbole in the last half of that sentence: "before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country."

Really?  In the US?  Even back then, that was a decent-sized list.  Interlachen?  Chicago Golf?  Essex?  Pinehurst?  Brookline?  He was all these places?    I'm surprised he had time to get to Britain at all! 

You can't believe what you read in newspapers."


Shivas:

As to which 'big" courses this website might conclude Wilson thought he needed to visit in this country back then should we consider what you think they were or what someone relevant to Wilson back then thought they were? 

Consider this:

Who was Wilson's original mentor on architecture? Who did Wilson give plenty of credit to for initially teaching him the 'construction principles' of golf architecture?

Well, we know that was C.B. Macdonald (and Whigam) during that two day visit to NGLA. We know that because Wilson wrote that in his 1916 report on the creation of Merion.

And we also know that Macdonald felt that before NGLA there were only three good courses in America. We know that because Macdonald tells us that in his own book. He listed them as Chicago G.C. (is that any surprise since Macdonald did it ), GCGC and Myopia.

So if Macdonald felt those three were the only good ones and he told that to Wilson at NGLA during that two day visit I hardly think it's a stretch that Wilson either knew those ones or could look at them pretty easily before building Merion or going to Europe. 

[Phil_the_Author]

I also pasted this on the other trhead:

David,

I, too, welcome you back.

I agree with your ascertion that Mike C.'s research of passenger manifests has been a limited one, but just because yours has encompassed a greater range and more and larger lists in no way should be taken to mean that it has been either complete or even close to it.

For example, in the original Merion thread from way back when, I challenged you on this very point and gave the example of Tilly's travels to Scotland. I once again did a search of the ancestry.com records (this is the one that you use) and under the name Albert Tillinghast there are only 2 records of ocverseas travel. 1 to Scotland and 1 coming back from Mexico in November of 1933.

We have known for quite sometime that tilly went to Scotland in 1895, 1898 & 1901, yet the manifests on ancestry.com appear incomplete. In addition, just this past Saturday I found a mention of an earlier trip to Scotland, written by Tilly in the American Golfer, thattook place between 1888 to 1892.

No mention of this one either.

I don't see how relience on the ship manifests records, at least at this point, can do anything other than show occasions WHEN a trip occurred. I fail to see how they can be used to prove that something that has been at least hinted at DIDN'T.

Please let me know if I am simply not searching ancestry.com properly. I looked under New York & Boston passenger lists (by the way guys there are a number of possible Hugh Wilsons leaving from Boston in the latter part of the first decade that might fit him traveling) and even passport requests.

By the way, I knew of Tilly's 1933 mexico trip but never knew he went by boat! I wouldn't have found that without today's search and so must credit you for that as it fills in a very important piece of timeline in something I am currently researching.

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