Best Course Ever Designed on Perfectly Flat Land

[Peter Wagner]

The winner would almost by definition be a desert course...

PGA West?  Minus 20 ft or so?

So many desert courses include the huge drainage ditch as an element...

Toscana does not so maybe a contender.(?)  All the old PS courses have the minus 40 foot drainage ditch thing...  maybe something in Florida?

I dunno, tough one.  Why do we care if elevation changes slightly?  Isn't that good?

Would have to be desert or links I think.

[Norbert P]

 The most educational flat course that I have ever played is Talking Stick North. Perhaps Rawls WAS flat but the earth displacement was massive enough to remove that fact when playing it.

[mark chalfant]

Inwood ny, is quite interesting by virtue of lively bunkering, variety of holes , and  clever green complexes

CC  of Detroit by  C. Alison, is again worthy of study following Keith Foster's restoration

[Chris Kane]

Is Kingston Heath the only "perfectly flat" golf course to have six blind shots due to elevation?  Absolutely ridiculous to call it flat - its not even the flattest on the sandbelt.

[James Bennett]

Deal (Royal Cinque Ports) is the hilliest course with little to no elevation change that I have played.  Plus 10 feet, minus 10 feet, plus 10 feet, minus 10 feet and so on and so on.

However, Deal is not obviously not 'perfectly flat land'.

James B

[Tony Petersen]

You guys are ALL BOZOS.

Chip asked for courses built on "PERFECTLY FLAT LAND" and you volunteer courses with 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 foot elevation changes.

CAN'T YOU READ ?

To date, only Pine Tree and Boca Rio qualify.

Looks like it's time to get a refill on the 'scrip and get back on the meds, grumpy one 

Talking Stick North is perfectly flat (but for a loss of elevation in barrancas, washes, bunkers, etc.) but would it qualify as great?

[Paul_Daley]

I'll put in a plug for Portmarnock --- the original version in Ireland, not Portmarnock Golf & Hotel Links. Muirfield, of course, is a cracker course upon relatively flat terrain, as is Royal Liverpool (Hoylake). Nairn, Scotland, has its share of admirers, too.

[Sean_A]

I must have a different idea of what flat is than most.  TOC doesn't have much broader elevation change, but it ain't flat.  Nairn isn't flat by a long shot, neither is Hoylake, Portmarnock or Muirfield.  Come to think of it, I haven't played a really good course which I would consider flat.

Ciao 

[Jason Connor]

I've never been, but how flat is Seminole?

[wsmorrison]

Boca Raton South no longer exists, but I suggest that it would be considered the greatest course ever designed on "perfectly flat" land.  It was designed similarly to what MacKenzie and Jones were after at Augusta National, that is a course that would test the greatest players yet also provide enjoyability for all classes of golfers.   Width, angles, and naturalism in harmony with the prevailing winds and surrounding landscape were the hallmarks of this outstanding design.

Jason,

Tom MacWood and Pat Mucci had a long standing dispute over that very question 

[Mark Pearce]

Hoylake doesn't qualify because of the run of holes that go up to the dune (would that be 12, 13, 14 with the new routing?).  Muirfield is flattish and may have less that Chips arbitrary 25-30 feet of elevation change but I don't think of 4, 6 and 8 as flat.  11 certainly isn't flat (a blind up-hill tee shot flat?) and 12 and 13 both make great use of the elevation change.

BTW, I'm with Lloyd, it's Chips thread but 25-30 feet?  That's a hell of an elevation change for a "flat" site.

[Paul_Daley]

Sean: we're on the same page. To be honest, there's no such thing as a flat golf course, just degrees of undulation. All of the courses I mentioned are definitely not flat; just relatively so, once compared to many of the world's 30,000 courses.
 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

The site that The Ocean Course here on Kiawah Island currently sits wasn't flat when Pete came to build the course with the sand dunes.  However, a short time after laying the course Hurricane Hugo came barreling through.  As we were on the south side of the landfall our winds were blowing straight out to sea.  After the storm was over, the entire dune structure had been turned into a moonscape.  It was now a completely flat canvas from which Pete had to design the course.

I was told that it costs $1.9 million to build the course (in 1989 dollars) but the vast majority of that was needed to clean up after the storm and save the live oaks on the front nine.

[David Stamm]

Allan picked a course I was thinking, Colonial CC, but when I think about it, it has I would guess 5-10 feet of elevation thorughout the property, maybe more. Then again, Bredemus/Maxwell might've built that in. And Matt picked another, PGA West. It was an abandoned orange orchard that I'm told was flat as a board. I'll be playing The Rawls course later this year, so I'm anxious to see what TD has done there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

Seminole is NOT flat.
It has substantive elevation changes.


Et. Al.,

Two words..

PERFECTLY FLAT

Wayno,

I'd agree, the land at Boca Raton South is perfectly flat.

Are any of the holes at the Royal Palm Yacht and Tennis club vestigial holes from Boca Raton South ?

And, remind me again, why did BRS go out of existance.

[Bill_McBride]

Courses like Royal Liverpool are on pretty flat sites. 

Except for the dunesland and the hill out at original #8 / Open #10.  (I can never get that routing number change straight!).  The central part of the course, around the clubhouse, is remarkably flat.

[Sean_A]

Courses like Royal Liverpool are on pretty flat sites. 

Except for the dunesland and the hill out at original #8 / Open #10.  (I can never get that routing number change straight!).  The central part of the course, around the clubhouse, is remarkably flat.

Isn't perception strange?  My characterization of the flat bits of Hoylake would be limited to holes 1, 6, 14, 15, 16 & 17.   Holes with wonderful movement are 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11 & 12.  The others have some movement - often around the greens.  I wonder if the initial perception of Hoylake taints it with the unflattering "flat" description?  In any case, flat is a word that may not appear until the second paragraph if I were describing Hoylake and I am not that big a fan of the place - though I do give it immense respect.

Ciao

[cary lichtenstein]

I think The Old Course at St Andrews is the best example as zero land was moved and it has stood the test of time

All the perfectly flat courses in Florida have at least moved earth for the greens complex's

[Garland Bayley]

Haven't read the thread, but a thought occurred to me. Matt W. wrote to the effect that his criteria for judging a golf course is to reward good shot proportional to their quality and penalize bad shots proportional to their remiss. A perfectly flat course with perfectly flat greens and no rough and no hazards would be the optimal fit to Matt's criteria. So according to Matt Ward, any course on perfectly flat land that does not have these attributes is a loser!
 

[Norbert P]

 The great Ratho Links in Bothwell, Tasmania.  The bunkers are about a foot deep and some greens may rise a few feet, but most do not.

 

[Steve Hyden]

I can only comment on courses I've played, and I nominate daily-fee Colony West (Devlin/Von Hagge) in Tamarac (Ft. Lauderdale), FL.  Not only is it flat-out flat, but it winds through a rather tired condo development, which the architects camouflaged effectively by angling approaches away from the buildings.

[Dean Stokes]

Played The Dye Preserve in Jupiter, Florida the other day. Has to be truly one of the flatest pieces of land to have ever had a golf course built on. It is a very good test of golf that never once loses your attention. The routing is good and his use of water hazards was fairly minimal for Florida.

The piece of land Dye had to build the TPC in Jacksonville must also have been very flat when he began.........

[Jay Flemma]

How about country club of charleston?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think The Old Course at St Andrews is the best example as zero land was moved and it has stood the test of time

All the perfectly flat courses in Florida have at least moved earth for the greens complex's

Cary,

The question wasn't contexted in the finished product, it was contexted in the flatness of the land prior to the golf course being built.

The title of the thread is:

"Best Course Ever Designed on Perfectly Flat Land.

[Ed Oden]

How about country club of charleston?

Jay, I haven't played CCC since the restoration, so I can't speak to its current quality.  But you are right, it is definitely on a flat piece of property except, as I recall, for the 11th tee which is up the hill  beyond the clubhouse.  Is the raised 11th green entirely engineered or was there some landform that spurred its design?

Ed