[Bryan Izatt]

Played it a couple of times last week.  The price was right through golfhub.com.  There was hardly anyone there - seems the Tonto Verde crowd has to pay to play it.  Unfortunately the beginning of the housing infrastructure is starting to encroach.  Better to get out there soon before the vistas are degraded by the encroaching world.

Following is a pictorial tour with limited comment.

Nice vista  on the first tee.  Carry over the left bunker for better line to the green




A tilted green that makes approaching from the right tricky.




The long par 3 second.  Back or right pins are tough.



A closer look at the 2nd green.  There are no easy greens out here.  It's shaved and drops off a bit at the back.




The 3rd is a moderate length par 5 with a crossing wash that limits long hitters to 300 yards or so off the tee.



A fairway bunker 50 yards short of the green right in line with the green plays with your mind.  Bail right and get an ugly pitch over the greenside bunker to a difficult elevated green.



The wrong side to approach from.



False sides, closely mown surrounds and runoffs on all sides.




A neat short par 3 at the fourth.  The flag was in a bowl accounting for the short birdie putt.  The bunkers look a little too repetitive here.
 



The fifth is a long par 4.  Completely bunkerless.  Another wash to limit the bombers at 300 yards from the tips.  The fairway is generously wide.



A really tough elevated green for such a long hole.  It runs off on all sides.  Might be fun to try to run a shot up through the moguls to the front of the green.



Long is ugly too.




The sixth is a longish par 5 with another crossing wash off the tee.



More midline bunkers to play with the mind in the second landing area.



And another challenging green complex.  And, ooops, a crossing cart path.   




A nice vista on the 7th tee - a short (driveable) par 4.  Marred somewhat by the introduction of a serious bridge over a dry (sometimes flash flood) wash. 



The green is narrow and protected in front by a sandy wash.  Parallel with the green left leaves a really tricky lob shot.  Right is OB.  But who can lay up.




Another  beautiful vista.  A longish par 4, the 8th plays shorter as its downhill and down wind.  A drive to the left side provides a better view down the length of the green.



Two perfect drives; an approach from the right of where these are is partly blind to an elevated green and the green side bunker comes into play.




The 9th is a long par 4 bending to the right.  Ample fairway, but a line skirting the right bunker provides a shorter second to the green.
 


A serious false right front.  Don't be short.
 



Back nine to follow.

[Bryan Izatt]

The 10th is a medium par 4, but slightly uphill.  Bombs away off the tee.



But, the second is a tough one to a table-top green.  A left pin is really intimidating.




A longish par 3, the 11th plays into the wind.  Back right pin positions is really tough.  Also easy to  bounce through the green into the back bunker,  The greens are firm.




The 12th is a longish par 4, shortened because it's downhill and down wind.   Another bunkerless hole.  Another beautiful vista.
 


Some trees pinch the fairway near the green.



The green is protected by a severe false front.  And it's hard to hold the green down wind.




A shortish downhill, downwind par 5 at the 13th, but this hole was my nemesis.  I just couldn't fit my tee shot in the fairway.



A crossing wash that needs to be carried on the second.



And another of those annoying bunkers getting in the way of a second running in from the safe left side of the drive landing zone.  Hug the right side (and risk OB) and this should be a birdie hole.




The 14th was a bit of a nondescript mid length par 3.  Nice view though.




The 15th is a shortish par 4 across the bottom of the property.  Although the elevation changes are subtle, there is a drop of 175 feet from the high point at the 5th and 6th and the low spot here.  A lot of bunkers to fit the drive between.



A relatively simple pitch if the drive is correctly placed.



The 16th is a shortish uphill par 4 that tempts you to drive over the crossing bunkers and wash, but it's more prudent to lay up.



The second shot is difficult to judge - subtly uphill into the wind to a table top green.  And, into the sun.




The 17th is a long, backbreaking uphill, into the wind, par 5.



The second needs to beware of leaking left or going too close to the crossing little barranca.



The green is angled to the fairway and elevated and well bunkered. 




The 18th is a mid-length par 4 bending to the right.  Challenging the right bunker provides a shorter second but brings the pond to the right of the green into play.  A drive more safely left provides a longer second, but doesn't require a carry over the water.



The right of the green is protected by a pond that's not visible from the LZ.




All in all, maybe not a top 100 course, but a good design by Ken Kavanaugh that's fun and challenging.  A good short game would really help with scoring.

[BVince]

Bryan, great pictures.  Thanks for the post.  The picture at sunset is just beautiful.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bryan,

Thanks for the pictures. As good as VV is, the question in my mind is: Is it too difficult for the 55+ people who will be buying the houses there?  The ratings/slopes are impressive:

Tee     USGA Rating    Slope Rating               Yardage
Black              73.3                    144                      7047
Black/Gold     72.6                 140                   6903
Gold              71.2                    136                      6592
Gold/Silver    70.4                 133                   6413
Silver        69                     125                       6140

[Mark Smolens]

Mr. S, you are absolutely correct about the difficulty for the demographic purchaser.  My buddy who lives at Tonto Verde thinks they will have serious difficulty in selling all of the real estate on the course.

The first time I played there, last year, we went over after a morning round at Tonto Verde.  As we approached the parking lot, two elderly couples were driving to their cars after their rounds -- the ladies looked as if they had been beaten for four hours, sweaty, hair messed.    They did not look as if they had been having a good time, and I would not like to have been their husbands that evening.

I thought the course was an exhilirating thrill ride, and that didn't change on my second visit earlier this year.  That picture of #1?  If you miss your drive, and fan it a little to the right (itwas about a 240 yard shot to carry the bunker from the tee we played), your second is an almost completely blind shot due to the mound in the fairway, and you're trying to stop the ball on a hard green, coming from over a bunker.  The green complexes are great.  Miss in the wrong place and you're deader than dead.  Great fun. Can't wait for my 9:00 a.m. return next Saturday. . .

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The silver tees,sloped at 125, seem to be manageable for the intended resident. I played the gold tees on my only visit to VV and got beat up. Next time, I'll move up.

Here's a good review:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=waynes_golf_addiction&id=4180201

[Sean_A]

The greens looks very interesting though most seem to have a slight rise to them - I would like to see more grade level greens.  Though to be honest and this is usually my beef with desert golf, the transitions from bunker to fairway to desert are far too abrupt.  This course needs a bit of attention to detail to make it blend far better into the surrounds.  The odd thing is, the desert is the perfect opportunity to use bunkering as a transition from the course to the desert.  Why has the archie kept to such rigid lines? 

Ciao

[Jim Johnson]

Excellent pics, Bryan, thanks.

JJ

[Matt_Ward]

Sean A:

Enjoyed your armchair analysis -- "This course needs a bit of attention to detail to make it blend far better into the surrounds ... Why has the archie kept to such rigid lines?"

Sean, it appears from your commentary you are doing what others feel compelled to do on GCA -- offer specific analysis without ever having set foot on the course. It's an opinion no doubt -- but a less than informed one. Forgive my #1 pet peeve here on GCA.

Vista Verde has miles and miles of design ATTENTION -- you would know that if you actually set foot and played the layout. In regards to your off-based though on "rigid lines" -- the course offers varying widths and movements and is not "rigid" but actally free flowing. When you play Vista Verde you need to keep your eyes on specific landing zones that can be hard to decipher through the adroit angles Ken Kavanaugh provides.


Gents:

Without sounding harsh -- please nuff of the tear jerkin arguments on why some 70+ year-old folks can't seem to "get it" with such a course.

My God, the Valley of the Sun has more than a few layouts that are comparable to Vista Verde and they seem to be doing well on the membership front.

Again, without sounding politically incorrect -- but there are people in this golf world of ours who could not hit Kansas from the Oklahoma stateline. Guess what they should be doing.

TAKE LESSONS ...

Vista Verde is one of the best public offerings you can still play now in the greater Phoenix / Scottsdale area. No doubt the coming encroachment of homes will dictate plenty in terms of how the course is effected. If one plays the appropriate tee boxes the course adjust well to any number of handicap types.

Mark S:

So true -- your final comments. Vista Verde has some of the most devilish greens one can play. They require true knowledge of the course and likely a first time visit may not reveal all the key places to be and NOT BE.

What's so funny is that if the architect of Vista Verde were a "name" guy the usual suspects who fawn would be coming out of the windows and lavishing praise. Just goes to show you that quality golf is not the dominion of a certain few.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

Let it be known that not all who armchair QB by just looking at the pics have come to the same conclusion. 

I think the course looks fantastic with choices-a-plenty off the tee and lots to think about.  I also felt it was one of the better examples I've seen of desert golf following the natural lay of the land and seemingly just planted the grass where the course would be.  The greens look devilish with the false fronts and well placed green side-bunkering.

My only criticsm, which is minor, was pointed out that the bunkering looks redudant in many spots, but thats not a problem as I have an uncanny knack for avoiding them despite my handicap being well into the teens. 

Perhaps a GCA.com event will be in VV's future...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

Obviously, playing the appropriate tees is the key to enjoying any course for  60+ golfers such as myself. The Verde complex- Rio, Tonto and now Vista- are all age restricted and private.VV will eventually be private too. After playing some of the courses in the West Valley age restricted communities- Sun City West, Sun City Grand and the new Schmidt/Curley Copper Canyon at Sun City Festival- my thoughts are that in those courses the archies designed for their intended players and that even the slopes from the back tees at those courses are nowhere near VV. I'm sure the developers have heard from their members at Tonto and Rio about their experiences at Vista and will take that into account when VV2 comes about.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

People can make comments of any type but it helps to have such statements from people who have played the course.

If you feel like Sean so be it.

[Bryan Izatt]

I'd imagine the target demographic would play from the Silver tees at 6363 yards according to the scorecard.  At 69.0, against a par of 72, it shouldn't be that difficult a slog.  The slope of 125 isn't that onerous.  Interestingly they placed both the Copper and Teal tees at the bottom of the card under the Women's Hcp.  Can't imagine many women enjoying it at 5974 yards with a rating of 72.5 and slope of 124.  Would have been better the Copper Tees up with the men.

Also, the course plays pretty firm and fast, so it's not as long as it seems.  The true test of scoring though is clearly around the greens.  The green complexes and green side bunkers would account for much of the slope. The greens are tough for men or women.

My wife has played it three times and hasn't complained at all. She walks and it is a nice walk.  Length wasn't an issue for her (and usually it is).  She did struggle with the greens, especially when she got out of position.

It'll be a long time before the housing and membership takes over given the current housing market.  They're selling lots at between $200 -$300K, so this is going to be an upscale development, which should further impede a rapid sell-out.

Sean,

I haven't seen any desert course where the course blends into the desert well.  They are two very different environments.  On the other hand, VV does it about as well as I've seen (apart from around the tees).  The desert scape is full of bushes and small trees and cacti, so visually you don't really see the rocky sandy desert until you get out to the edges.  They're are only so many transition bunkers that you can put along the edges of fairways to blend in the edges and Kavanaugh here seems to have opted for formalized bunkers here.

So, I, for one would like to celebrate the course for what it is, a fun challenging desert course.  Viva Vista Verde.  It sure is a hell of a lot better than sitting here watching the snow melt, very slowly. 

[Sean_A]

Sean A:

Enjoyed your armchair analysis -- "This course needs a bit of attention to detail to make it blend far better into the surrounds ... Why has the archie kept to such rigid lines?"

Sean, it appears from your commentary you are doing what others feel compelled to do on GCA -- offer specific analysis without ever having set foot on the course. It's an opinion no doubt -- but a less than informed one. Forgive my #1 pet peeve here on GCA.

Vista Verde has miles and miles of design ATTENTION -- you would know that if you actually set foot and played the layout. In regards to your off-based though on "rigid lines" -- the course offers varying widths and movements and is not "rigid" but actally free flowing. When you play Vista Verde you need to keep your eyes on specific landing zones that can be hard to decipher through the adroit angles Ken Kavanaugh provides.


Gents:

Without sounding harsh -- please nuff of the tear jerkin arguments on why some 70+ year-old folks can't seem to "get it" with such a course.

My God, the Valley of the Sun has more than a few layouts that are comparable to Vista Verde and they seem to be doing well on the membership front.

Again, without sounding politically incorrect -- but there are people in this golf world of ours who could not hit Kansas from the Oklahoma stateline. Guess what they should be doing.

TAKE LESSONS ...

Vista Verde is one of the best public offerings you can still play now in the greater Phoenix / Scottsdale area. No doubt the coming encroachment of homes will dictate plenty in terms of how the course is effected. If one plays the appropriate tee boxes the course adjust well to any number of handicap types.

Mark S:

So true -- your final comments. Vista Verde has some of the most devilish greens one can play. They require true knowledge of the course and likely a first time visit may not reveal all the key places to be and NOT BE.

What's so funny is that if the architect of Vista Verde were a "name" guy the usual suspects who fawn would be coming out of the windows and lavishing praise. Just goes to show you that quality golf is not the dominion of a certain few.

Matt

If one at all feels that gca is at least partially an artform, then that artistry must have some under pinnings in how a course sets in the landscape.  IMO, this aspect of design is very important even though it has little to do with shot making, but then I have always believed that there is more to architecture then the quality of individual shots.     









If you feel that I need to fly to the desert and set foot on the land to make the observation that more detail in the transitions from the course to the desert would improve the architecture, that is your prerogative.  However, I believe the pics above illustrate my point more than adequately. 

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

Steve,

I haven't played Tonto or Rio, but their ratings look similar to VV from the same length of tees.  For instance, the Peaks has 6300 tees similar to the VV Silver tees and the rating and slope are slightly higher than VV's.  The corridors looked much narrower and the housing looked to be in danger on the holes I could see.  At VV it looks like the corridors are wide enough that the housing shouldn't be too intrusive when it arrives.

It was also my impression that the Tonto and Rio people weren't at VV because it was not included in their membership - they have to pay as they play - not because the course was too hard.

I also played SunRidge Cyn, another notionally private housing course and found it much more difficult because of narrower corridors.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean, how would you make the transitions more natural in this kind of environment?  No doubt the tees generally look like lily pads thrown on the desert sand and gravel, but how would you do it differently?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bryan,

I think VV, from whatever tees one chooses, is a course that requires local knowledge after multiple plays. I'd like to return there and play from the silver tees. I have played both courses at Tonto and the corridors are somewhat narrower. Both are enjoyable courses for me from the silver tees and even back one set. I have not played the courses at Rio but understand Lehman Design has worked on them.  There are plans for another 9 at VV. I understand Tonto is now semi-private as I see discounted tee times there on golfnow.com.

[Sean_A]

Sean, how would you make the transitions more natural in this kind of environment?  No doubt the tees generally look like lily pads thrown on the desert sand and gravel, but how would you do it differently?

Bryan

A few methods are:

1. Planting vegetation in the transition zones to hide the seam of grass to desert.

2. Don't leave grass between bunkers and desert - let the desert flow into the bunkers.

3. Use the natural (and even man made) ups and downs of the terrain to hide long, straight transition zones. 

4. Lower the tees so the desert can actually hide turf.

5. Lower some greens to make them flow better into the background.

I seem to recall seeing pix of some desert course, was it a C&C (?), in which the transitions were far better.  That doesn't mean the course is necessarily better, but to me it stands a much better chance of putting a smile on my face.

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,

They have planted vegetation in the transitions around the tees, but being a new course, it'll be a while (especially in the desert) before that grows in.  For whatever reasons Kavanaugh decided to go with formal bunkers, some with grass outside toward the desert.    The course you're thinking of with bunker transitions into the desert probably was Talking Stick North where C&C used it.  There are stark lines there too where there are no bunkers.  In the end, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.  Personally, I don't mind the transitions.  Too busy looking at the longer vistas, I guess.

[Tom Yost]

Bryan,  thanks for the pics and report.

Is the course walkable and/or do they allow walking?

A timely post by the way, because if anyone else is interested, we are planning a get together on Sunday May 4th when Jason Topp will be in town and we were considering the TPC Champions or Vista Verde and my vote is going to VV!!  There is another thread going here:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33951.0.html

Please PM or email me if interested   tjy355 aht cox daht net.

Tom

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

It's a pretty easy walk.  There a fair elevation change but it is gentle slope.  The slope is more noticeable on Dynamite Rd as you approach the course.

My wife walked and I drove the cart - she made me do it.  I'd imagine they'd let you walk, but there's probably no price break.  And, they have no pull carts.

If you and Jason do go there, please let us know what you think.  Although I haven't played the new Champions course, I think VV is a hands down first choice over it, just based on location.  VV is way better than the old Champions.  All this predicated on getting a decent green fee out of VV.

[Ryan Farrow]

Sean A:

Enjoyed your armchair analysis -- "This course needs a bit of attention to detail to make it blend far better into the surrounds ... Why has the archie kept to such rigid lines?"

Sean, it appears from your commentary you are doing what others feel compelled to do on GCA -- offer specific analysis without ever having set foot on the course. It's an opinion no doubt -- but a less than informed one. Forgive my #1 pet peeve here on GCA.

Vista Verde has miles and miles of design ATTENTION -- you would know that if you actually set foot and played the layout. In regards to your off-based though on "rigid lines" -- the course offers varying widths and movements and is not "rigid" but actally free flowing. When you play Vista Verde you need to keep your eyes on specific landing zones that can be hard to decipher through the adroit angles Ken Kavanaugh provides.

Hate to break it to Matt, but Sean nailed it. Once again cementing my theory that he is one of the "few" people on this site who really know their stuff.  Ive said it before, my biggest complaint against Vista Verde is that I was left with the same shot after barely missing greens, over and over again. The fact is, the majority of the greens DO have steep fall offs on many of the sides AND it is repetitive. Much like the bunkers. I also have a personal problem with the cleanness of the course, like Sean. Its a personal preference and certainly not necessary either way to affect my opinion of the quality of the golf course.

So Matt, there are some things that people can make out of pictures, they may not be able to comment on the overall quality of the course, but then again he never did.

So after all of that, its a really good golf course, which is hard to find in the valley, that bridge scares me so I think I'm heading to golf hub to look for a tee time now.

[Kalen Braley]

Ryan,

I don't have a problem with your previous post, but does that also mean Pinehurst #2 gets the same criticsm for its greens?

[Ryan Farrow]

Kalen, I know very little of Pinehurst, never been there. I have read that those greens have evolved into what they are today because of years and years of topdressing?

My argument is for the case of variety in green surrounds, so if all of Pinehurst's green surrounds play and look the same, I will tell you I don't like them.

[Michael Dugger]

Looks like a challenging set of greens.  Bunkering is aesthetically pleasing.

Tie-ins to the native are tastefully done.

I don't need lacey-edged bunkers all the time to be happy. 

People have been saying good things about this course for a while now, and the images only confirm such to this Oregonian.

I'd like to play Vista Verde.  It looks sweet.   

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