[George Pazin]

To this I agree, though I refine it to one aspect of ego/pride that encompasses ALL evil, IMHO. That is self-deception. I have never seen anything humans have done which I would classify as evil, that did not spawn from their convenient personal beliefs. From Charlie Manson's maniacal joy at his power over his 'children', to Adolf's truly certain feeling of being the true protector of the superior Aryan race [aka megalamania]. People have a natural need to believe they are somehow at the top [of whatever], and that others who are different are less.

Enough lecture. Self-deception is the true and, IMHO, only root of evil.

Doug

And yet you support today's crop of lefties (not that the righties are necessarily any better in this regard). You are the biggest enigma on the site to me, Doug, and I mean that in a good way.

-----

Upon further review, pride and ego are more at the root level than my earlier answer, overuse of water. Overuse of water is probably more of an indicator of the pride/ego thing than a root itself.

Still, all that water irks me.

[Doug Ralston]

To this I agree, though I refine it to one aspect of ego/pride that encompasses ALL evil, IMHO. That is self-deception. I have never seen anything humans have done which I would classify as evil, that did not spawn from their convenient personal beliefs. From Charlie Manson's maniacal joy at his power over his 'children', to Adolf's truly certain feeling of being the true protector of the superior Aryan race [aka megalamania]. People have a natural need to believe they are somehow at the top [of whatever], and that others who are different are less.

Enough lecture. Self-deception is the true and, IMHO, only root of evil.

Doug

And yet you support today's crop of lefties (not that the righties are necessarily any better in this regard). You are the biggest enigma on the site to me, Doug, and I mean that in a good way.

-----

Upon further review, pride and ego are more at the root level than my earlier answer, overuse of water. Overuse of water is probably more of an indicator of the pride/ego thing than a root itself.

Still, all that water irks me.

He he George, thanks. Some here [Garland, Melvyn etc] clearly consider me to be the 'root of evil'.   

Doug

[Melvyn Morrow]

Doug

No, I don’t think you deserve a rating that high  

[Mike_Young]

IMHHO I would think that instant playability vs evolving has become the root of so much evil in golf courses today...and that takes into account maintenance equipment and practices etc.....it also has much to do with why so many golf courses fail.....we keep thinking we can buy exclusivity in golf clubs....and we keep trying to come up with that product....but it can only evolve over time.....

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

That's a good answer, and one more symptom of my answer, which is that the root of all evil in golf is the golf BUSINESS.

Golf is still a recreation in Scotland, and there's no problem there to this day, other than at clubs which profit from visitor play.  And those clubs stick it to the visitors ... for the members it's still the same as it was before.

In the USA, golf is a business.  Clubs think they must compete with other clubs, leading to all the excesses in conditioning and amenities which escalate the cost of golf.  New development courses spend millions extra on irrigation and sod and marketing and brand-name designers to make an immediate impression.  It's about greed and money, too ... but most of all we've forgotten what golf is about.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

I agree with the majority of your statement
 
‘that the root of all evil in golf is the golf BUSINESS’, but I feel you are unfair in your comment ‘And those clubs stick it to the visitors ...’

For the most part Scottish and for that matter UK Golf has been about clubs. These clubs maintain their courses by annual payments provided by their membership, starting on average around the £200 -300 mark and upwards. They allow non members (and visitors) the opportunity of playing their course at a fair and reasonable rate. I see not problem in Clubs trying to make a profit.

A broad statement that all clubs stick it to the visitors is just not acceptable. I will agree that some course are expensive, but weight that against the course and the numbers wanting to play, may justify their charges. I expect that there might be the odd club that is a bit over the top. When equating Green Fees in the UK, you must also take into account our cost of living is more expensive than in the USA, so our prices also reflect this.

I have tended to agree with most of your comments that I have read on GCA.com, but I feel that it was a poor choice of words.

However, I totally endorse your last paragraph, starting with “In the USA, golf is a business” and finishing with “but most of all we've forgotten what golf is about”.

[Peter Pallotta]

A long-time Hollywood producer was asked about the difference between the olds days and now. He said, 'Back then it was all about greed. That  was okay, because you could always satisfy greed. But today it's about greed and ego, and there's just no way to satisfy ego".

Peter   

[Norbert P]

television

Color TV ... if we were still watching the Master's in black and white, would an overly green golf courses be a requirement?

Interesting thought. Do TVs nowadays have a Black and White / Sepia / Color select button, like digital cameras do?   I would really like to see that -  without commercials. 

[Greg Murphy]

"It's a golf course, not a picture."

Kyle,

I think I know what you're saying here. First and foremost, a golf course is a place to play golf. But there's no avoiding the fact that a golf course, like a park, is a picture, too. A golf course cannot NOT be a picture. It's impossible.

[Mike_Young]

Tom

I agree with the majority of your statement
 
‘that the root of all evil in golf is the golf BUSINESS’, but I feel you are unfair in your comment ‘And those clubs stick it to the visitors ...’

For the most part Scottish and for that matter UK Golf has been about clubs. These clubs maintain their courses by annual payments provided by their membership, starting on average around the £200 -300 mark and upwards. They allow non members (and visitors) the opportunity of playing their course at a fair and reasonable rate. I see not problem in Clubs trying to make a profit.

A broad statement that all clubs stick it to the visitors is just not acceptable. I will agree that some course are expensive, but weight that against the course and the numbers wanting to play, may justify their charges. I expect that there might be the odd club that is a bit over the top. When equating Green Fees in the UK, you must also take into account our cost of living is more expensive than in the USA, so our prices also reflect this.

I have tended to agree with most of your comments that I have read on GCA.com, but I feel that it was a poor choice of words.

However, I totally endorse your last paragraph, starting with “In the USA, golf is a business” and finishing with “but most of all we've forgotten what golf is about”.

Melvyn,
The way I read TD's statement...it was not intended to be taken as a slam.....they should charge the visitors and in so doing allow it to remain as is for the locals.....It is obvious Americans do not mind paying it and if you get a good logo they will pay you even more....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

I did not read it that way – Tom seems to imply that clubs stick it to visitors - this is not my understanding and when I visited Scotland to play golf I have always paid the same as anyother day visitor.

Sorry, lost you on the logo comment.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Tom

I agree with the majority of your statement
 
‘that the root of all evil in golf is the golf BUSINESS’, but I feel you are unfair in your comment ‘And those clubs stick it to the visitors ...’

For the most part Scottish and for that matter UK Golf has been about clubs. These clubs maintain their courses by annual payments provided by their membership, starting on average around the £200 -300 mark and upwards. They allow non members (and visitors) the opportunity of playing their course at a fair and reasonable rate. I see not problem in Clubs trying to make a profit.

A broad statement that all clubs stick it to the visitors is just not acceptable. I will agree that some course are expensive, but weight that against the course and the numbers wanting to play, may justify their charges. I expect that there might be the odd club that is a bit over the top. When equating Green Fees in the UK, you must also take into account our cost of living is more expensive than in the USA, so our prices also reflect this.

I have tended to agree with most of your comments that I have read on GCA.com, but I feel that it was a poor choice of words.

However, I totally endorse your last paragraph, starting with “In the USA, golf is a business” and finishing with “but most of all we've forgotten what golf is about”.

Melvyn

While I don't exactly feel that most private clubs stick it to the visitors (though many are way over-priced), some are pushing the boundaries of decency, as is evidenced by many people I know not willing to pay the visitor green fee of many a famed club.  A few courses on public land should be down right embarrassed to charge what they do as it is completely unnecessary other than to continue a monster of extra costs which are neither here not there really.  Carnoustie and TOC are the ones I am thinking of here. 

I have long thought that the American system is well out of control, but all is not lost.  There are plenty of good value courses the quality of which should satisfy any golfer, but then the ego side of the equation largely rests with the consumer if you believe (like me) that the consumer drives most things to do with spending money.

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

Mike

I did not read it that way – Tom seems to imply that clubs stick it to visitors - this is not my understanding and when I visited Scotland to play golf I have always paid the same as anyother day visitor.

Sorry, lost you on the logo comment.

Melvyn

Melvyn,
I do think they charge a much higher price for the American tourist and I have no problem with them doing so....
what i meant by the "logo" statement was that many guys just "want the T-shirt" mentality and if a club can get a great logo then guys will really wish to play it.....IMHO.....I may be a little sarcastic

[Mike_Young]

Mike:

That's a good answer, and one more symptom of my answer, which is that the root of all evil in golf is the golf BUSINESS.

Golf is still a recreation in Scotland, and there's no problem there to this day, other than at clubs which profit from visitor play.  And those clubs stick it to the visitors ... for the members it's still the same as it was before.

In the USA, golf is a business.  Clubs think they must compete with other clubs, leading to all the excesses in conditioning and amenities which escalate the cost of golf.  New development courses spend millions extra on irrigation and sod and marketing and brand-name designers to make an immediate impression.  It's about greed and money, too ... but most of all we've forgotten what golf is about.

TD,
Yep GOLF BUSINESS is a much more concise way of stating it.....
At the risk of having all club managers upset with me it sort of went like this.....
CMAA wishes to promote club business thus markets F&B guys as general managers......all the while PGA is allowing such.  Suddenly Club managers are showing "numbers" whereby F&B is making money and golf is not....the old golf pro has to go because the Club Manager can hire a much cheaper person.....AND overnite we have huge F&B operations being subsidized by golf.....and it goes from there ;)JMO

[Paul_Daley]

The most pathetic thing I see in golf is the absurd 'theatre' of a 25-handicap golfer walking up thirty metres to the nearest tap cover to check the distance.

[Lou_Duran]

Paul Daley,

Playing the devil's advocate here, but if the poor bloke can at least correctly fix his starting point, wouldn't his wide distribution of misses at least be a little tighter than if he just eye-balls the distance, gets it wrong as he is wont to do, then proceeds to hit with the same probability of success?  Removing the one variable from his mind- knowing the distance to the target- readily under his control may actually save time and be a blessing.  Anyways, speed of play is definitely a problem in golf, but I've seen any number of low handicap golfers who play very slow.  Not being knowledgeable or respectfull of the common courtesies of the game is at the "Root of All Evil". 

[Lester George]

Golf Carts

Relentless pursuit of perfection in maintenance

Golf Carts

Golf Cart Paths

Stimpmeter

Lester

[Lester George]

Kelly,

Don't know about the Ryan thing, but great catch on me being on the list!

Regards,

Lester

[Doug Ralston]

Golf Carts

Relentless pursuit of perfection in maintenance

Golf Carts

Golf Cart Paths

Stimpmeter

Lester

At least you put yourself last on the list of evil Lester.  Don't be so hard on yourself.  Eventhough Ryan Farrow doesn't think you do anything for the environement I am sure you try hard!

I know most people do not like to play 9-hole courses, but there is one about an hour south of my home we play a lot. It is a fun one, by George! 

Doug

[Melvyn Morrow]

Doug

We finally agree on something  – that 9 hole courses can be great fun.

I had to read that twice,  once before going down the pub and again when I returned 

So, will not give up on you, just yet.

[Kyle Harris]

The most pathetic thing I see in golf is the absurd 'theatre' of a 25-handicap golfer walking up thirty metres to the nearest tap cover to check the distance.

Most sprinkler heads are spaced around 30 yards apart.

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