To Be Or NOTTS To Be: 2023-24 Winter Tour

[James Boon]

Sean,

The ball certainly wasn't rolling too far when we played, so it did feel very long that day. But as you rightly pointed out, many of the white tees were pushed forward to the yellows or thereabouts.

You will have to come back next summer to experience the firm and fast conditions! With the right wind conditions, I played several rounds last year were I only hit 4 or 5 drivers, as it was so dry there was so much run on the ball. Bizarrely, I didn't play much from the blues in those conditions, but even in the spring or autumn, the back tees don't feel like it plays as long as the yardage, as there will still be some holes were a fairway wood might be better off the tee, such as 1, 7, 8, 11 and 16 perhaps?

A lot of the extra yardage from the back tees comes on only a few holes such as 2, 3, 6, 10, 12 and 13. Of those, 13 is downhill, so even at almost 250yards, unless its into the wind, its not the monster it might appear on the card! I actually quite like this setup, rather than the steady spread of tees at 20 yard intervals say on each hole?

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

James, Sean,

There wasn't a lot of run, that's for sure but it didn't feel over-long and, without playing terribly well I reckon I played pretty much to handicap.  I don't know what that tells us about the course, though but I'd certainly be happy playing off the whites again.

[Sean_A]

See the updated Notts tour - simply magnificent.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

Without question #s 10-16 lift Notts from the ranks of  good courses to that of very good courses, possible even great.  The terrain which makes these holes so compelling simply does not exist among the class London heathland courses.

I agree completely. For me that stretch of holes plus the wonderful variety of color and textures on display in some of the "interior views" you mentioned earlier definitely putt Notts in the "great" category. A course that can offer as much fun as I had on a day I was not playing well and can also be set up as a brutally long monster for elite players is hard to find. And I just love the terrain and the Nottinghamshire setting.

[James Bennett]

Here is a dozen photos from Saturday.  Apologies to my friends if they don't like their pics.  But they do show the great playing conditions at Notts - it was a great day.

A lovely green site - 17th green


The 18th hole - classic Notts!


The 5th tee - the vegetation is typical of the clumps around notts - never in play.


The 6th - fairway bunkers can be more than a half-shot penalty, even for Sean.


A couple of tee shots on 11 - James and Neil showing their style.




The down-hill 13th - 241 yards into the wind - an easy hole if you can borrow the right club.


But, if you hit the wrong club poorly....


And the result is ......


Sean firing one a bit left on 15.  A great recovery onto the green, and a putt holed from the back for an unbelievable birdie.  Not good enough though - Neil produced a first-class birdie with a shot to win the hole.


And, on 18, the flagpole flowerbed is GUR - play prohibited.  Not a good place to play your third from.  7-woods go a lot further than 4-irons.  I understand now why cars wait for people to play 3 and 18!


By the way, as with all classic GCA games - the outcome wasthat the foreigners and the english tied the match.  For a last post - the influence of those canny Scots is everywhere.  Look at the half-way house price list.  The prices have been increased, authorised by ..... UNBELIEVABLE!  FBD is omnipotent.


James B

[Sean_A]

See the updated Notts tour - simply magnificent.

Ciao

I'm going to say that you have revised your views on the course in a positive sense? How has your view changed since last time you played. Need to get back there and tap up sir Boon!

BMS

Yes, but I still have reservations about Notts because its length eliminates the opportunity for drivable par 4s and short 3s - indeed I like to see five 3s and Notts has only three.  On the other hand, its a beautiful site and the terrain around the hill is used exceedingly well.  That back nine is as good as it gets.  We played from the white tees - about 6900 yards - and the driving part of the game is seriously tested.  Luckily, some of the best holes on the course are the long 4s.  I think of 2, 4, 12, 15 & 18; all are good and quite different - that strikes me as very unusual for banger 4s.  I just think the 6900 tees should be avoided if the course isn't keen.  Yesterday was the first time I played Notts when the ball was rolling.  It must also be said that junk hasn't had time to grow and I suspect in June the test of driving is even more difficult.  Yesterday Notts was quite forgiving.  I hit many bad shots and didn't lose a ball.

Ciao

[James Bennett]

Not one of the four lost a ball, which given some of the shots is quite amazing - credit to Notts!

[Scott Warren]

Who is the fourth in your pics, James. I recognise Jimmy B and the Gringo.

[James Bennett]

One other point to make that I discussed off-line with Scott - the course has some similarity in land to that at NSW, but (obviously) without the sea views.  The turbo kick points on the down hill par 5's, the shape of the hillsides, the use of holes that play up a valley, and others that treverse the valleys, the climbs and descents.

I would be interested in others who have seen both courses as to their views.

[Scott Warren]

Great minds, James. As you were posting the above, I was writing this: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55625.0.html

[James Boon]

Sean,

Belated thanks for the updated tour and thanks also to the other James B for his pictures and company on the day.

I'm glad you finally got to see the course when it is playing firm and fast which certainly helps from the white tees. The whites are used by most members for general play so one does get used to the length of the course, and in winter the whites are often quite a way forwards, but when its not firm and fast the course can be a brute. However in the summer, it possible to have to only play a driver 6 or 7 times due to the run on the ball, which is saying something for a course just shy of 7,000 yards?

Scott, James,

Afraid I cant add to the comparison with NSW as I've never played it.

Scott,

That's Neil White with us. He joined GCA since you left these parts and is a thoroughly decent chap as well a being on this years golf course architecture course!

Cheers,

James

[Tom Kelly]

James,

Every time I see photos of Notts or even better play there I think it is better and better even after playing it so many times, vastly underated by most of the golfing world. It looks like the course is in really good shape given the winter and weather we've had too.

Have more trees been cleared to the right of the 13th tee, it looks like the view has been opened up more than I remember it from my last visit? Or was that all the done with the other clearance work between 9,10,11 & 12 a few years back and I've just forgotten?!

Are the club still hoping to attract the Walker Cup or have the logistical problems scuppered the plans? I assume they had bid for the 2019 event that Hoylake has been given?

Cheers
Tom

[James Boon]

Tom,

Those trees on the right of 13 were cleared out long ago as you mention. There has though been quite a bit of clearing elsewhere, which I believe is at the direction of Gordon Irvine to get more air circulation around the greens. There is a presentation to the members in a few weeks time and I can probably report back after that? A lot of trees and gorse have come out from the bank on the left of the 10th green and the gorse has all come out of the bank on the left of 15.

The R&A did seem very impressed with the course and the club after the Boys Championship last year! Whether or not the club is still keen to host a Walker Cup, I can't comment officially, but I do still hear reference to it possibly happening? I do though think there may be a few logistical problems, mainly related to the entrance driveway being so close to the 3rd and 18th greens, but as I always say regarding Open venues and logistics, if the R&A want something it will happen?

We do though have the Brabazon Trophy in 2015.

Let me know next time you are this way and we can meet up for a game?

Cheers,

James

[Tom Kelly]

James,

I will do and same goes to you if your down south and fancy stopping by Liphook let me know.

Cheers

Tom

[Greg Taylor]

Had the good fortune to play Notts for the first time yesterday.

In terms of the Midlands and to this uneducated eye it ranks as #1 or thereabouts with Beau.

Played off the white, in wind/rain with the rough up, quite a test from the tee. The back nine is a wonderful series of holes for sure.

Only downside was the lack of any food in the evening when we finished up.

For me the Midlands is pretty barren in terms of golf courses, but Notts is well worth a visit; wont be regretted.

[Sean_A]

The Winter Tour stopped in at Notts again earlier this week. Notts seems to be slowly growing on me because it does tick a lot of boxes: fine long 4s, fine drive short iron 4s, good mix of 5s with the 3rd having one of the great second shots in the Midlands, superb variety and some well placed and attractive bunkers.  See the updated Tour on page 1.

Previous stops on the Tour:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48115.0.html  Mosely  NR

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.0.html  Worplesdon  R

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.0.html  Walton Heath New  1*

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html  Cumberwell Park Orange  1*

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html  Kington  1*

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html  Cleeve Cloud  R


Future Scheduled Stops: Delamere Forest, Formby Ladies, Formby & Little Aston   


3* Don’t Miss For Any Reason
2* Plan  A Trip Around This Course
1* Worth An Overnight Detour
R  Worth A Daytrip
r  A Good Fall Back On Course If Nearby 
NR  Not Recommended


Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - you are a man who knows what he likes, and who knows that he knows. And, while it profits such a man little to play a *2 but to pay too much, will you really throw away the chance (and at a bargain price) simply for lack of a drivable 4 and too few 3s?? The former - for me - is the singularly most over rated type of golf hole to be found, and the latter are a dime a dozen, and most of them banal. Do reconsider upgrading one of my favourites....
Peter

Very good scale, by the way - very clear utility. And yes, a big jump from *1 to *2.

[Sean_A]

Pietro

Yes, the Recommendation Scale is designed around the course, experience and cost of the game.  1* is a very good rating as it was meant to be ala Michelin.  

I know you had an epiphany concerning 3s and very short 4s.  Our difference in opinion could be that I am used to getting good 3s etc and you are not?   From my perspective these type holes are the only way to design in maximum variety...the variety in length that big courses ultimately fail to provide.  That said, Notts has for a very long time been a big course which can host the flat bellies...this is quite unusual for classic inland English courses....even so I suspect the Muirfield menu of serious rough would be employed to keep these guys in check.  I haven't seen Notts in proper summer conditions so I don't know what the tradeoff is between rough and extra roll (Notts is long!)...the fairways though are not wide on many holes...there could be a lot of laying up for the thinking golfer thus negating the extra roll factor.    

At the end of the day, variety is probably my most important factor when evaluating courses.  Notts has that where the terrain is concerned, but not so much in length of holes...and I love a large and good set of 3s and few very shortie 4s to add spice to a round.  The 4s are real strength of Notts and it isn't a stretch to say this could be the best set in England.  However, with a lot of banger golf on the card, the 3s take on added role of importance.  Despite the charming 13th, as a set, Notts' 3s do not stand out. 

Ciao  

[Brent Hutto]

Peter,

I've found that lately you have a knack for posting thoughts with which I find myself in immediate and severe agreement. This is not one of them. If you think extra Par 3's, short Par 4's and the like are undesirable or overrated then I'm afraid I fail to miss your point. In fact I've recently moved from my old club of 10 years to one with five Par 3 holes (including one ridiculously long uphill one) and one brutally difficult Par 4 of around 300 yards effective playing length. And my most recent "new favorite" course from last year's UK golf holiday was Harlech which is virtually overrun with Par 3's of all types including long ones, blind ones, a Par 3 for the 18th hole, you name it.

Sean,

My one round at Notts was on a warm day in September, what we'd call "Indian Summer" conditions back home. And the course was quite keen, still with summertime rough but very dry and firm turf running keenly and the greens had balls bounding this way and that. As you know, Notts from the medal tees is "too long" for my game but fortunately I was playing with James Boon as a partner in a better-ball deal so I could just do my best to keep up and I had some good holes on my own ball I must say.

My summary of that one round would be to say in "proper summer conditions" Notts does in fact play to a manageable length despite what the card yardages might indicate. And at least that particular summer I found there to be enough width that the extra run on the ball was generally useful, unlike some courses which are so narrow and rough-choked that keen conditions just cause the ball to run into trouble.

That said, there were many areas where it wasn't just "rough" but the gnarly, long, irregular clumpy stuff that eats balls and, if you do luck out and find it, are borderline un-hackable anyway. My memory is that most of the gnarled clumpy rough was encountered by shots that *flew* well off line. Balls that were struck in the right general direction but slightly errant tended to run into more manageable lies in the shorter, trimmed rough. As you say, perhaps when set up for flatbelly tournaments they don't have that shorter type of rough in which case it's just a brutal tournament course. I didn't see it my day there in September, 2012 during an Invitation Day outing.

P.S. But then again, my round at Notts was immediately after three days at Ganton which I found gloriously wide and playable w.r.t. rough. Only the bunkers at Ganton were constant obstacles to my tee game. Perhaps after six rounds dealing with Ganton's bunkering I was simply glad to be risking rough rather than deep sand pits on my tee shots!

[Mark Pearce]

The last time I played Notts was with Sean, Sheehy and James Boon and was a Winter round (I want to say February but it might have been Marh).  The ground was a bit soft and we played (to Sean's disapproval) a long set of tees (maybe Blues?)  I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't (to me at least) feel at all like a long slog even from those tees and in those conditions.  I wonder if it is just one of those courses that doesn't feel as long as it is, whilst others feel longer than they are?  Alternatively, maybe it was just the esteemed company that made it feel that way......

[David Davis]

Sean,

Thanks for the review. Great stuff as always. Course looks excellent. have to agree on the rough being left so long down to the green level on that what could be punchbowl like green. It would make it fun to be able to use the banks with consistency coming in from off angles. Though it would make it much easier perhaps.

I'm not sure about the watering hole Boony suckered you guys into drinking out of after he washed off his spikes....

[Tom Kelly]

Sean,

Thanks for the review. Great stuff as always. Course looks excellent. have to agree on the rough being left so long down to the green level on that what could be punchbowl like green. It would make it fun to be able to use the banks with consistency coming in from off angles. Though it would make it much easier perhaps.

I'm not sure about the watering hole Boony suckered you guys into drinking out of after he washed off his spikes....

Unfortunately I think cutting the grass around the 15th green any shorter would be nearly impossible as it is so steep.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Thanks for the review. Great stuff as always. Course looks excellent. have to agree on the rough being left so long down to the green level on that what could be punchbowl like green. It would make it fun to be able to use the banks with consistency coming in from off angles. Though it would make it much easier perhaps.

I'm not sure about the watering hole Boony suckered you guys into drinking out of after he washed off his spikes....

Unfortunately I think cutting the grass around the 15th green any shorter would be nearly impossible as it is so steep.

Tom

I too thought this and water run-off down to the green might be an issue.  But I was thinking more of shorter grass maybe a yard or so up the slopes from the green. 

Ciao

[James Boon]

Sean,

Nice revised write up. Glad Hollinwell is slowly growing on you!

I tend to agree with you that the grass around 15 might be better a bit shorter but its very steep and wouldnt be easy to maintain.

Regarding length, members can play from any tees they want to, with low single figures often going off the blues, most the whites and older guys the yellows (still 6,600). Despite the numbers, as Mark P says, it doesnt seem to feel that long apart from some of the long 4s. In the summer when its playing firm and fast, from the white tees at 6,900 I have on occasion only hit 6 or 7 drivers and as I'm far from the longest hitter that hopefully gives an indication of how it can run.

Having said that, I wouldnt mind seeing the 9th played from a more forward tee through the summer giving a shorter par 3, and perhaps building a bit of a larger tee around the ladies tee on 16 which might tempt a few average players to try and bounce one up onto the green?

Sean, the course should be in good condition come August for Buda when I suspect the rough will have been trimmed a little, but you are welcome to come earlier in the year around the Brabazon Trophy to see what its like then as well if you like?  

Cheers,

James

[Tom Kelly]

I'm guessing for the Brabazon it is going to be a case of "where is the fairway?" on the 18th tee? I'm all for width but part of me loves the look of the long fescue in its full glory scaring the living daylights out of the golfers, and the view from 18 when the English Am was on there a few years ago summed it up perfectly.

It would be nice to see a few more guys tempted to have a cut at 16 with a forward tee. I'd also like to have a go from the old Willie Park tee right of 15th for abit of variety.

Would the 5th not work better as a shorter par 3 than the 9th? It would leave a longer green to tee walk, but to me the green would work better for a shorter shot and provide abit more variety between the long 4th & 6th holes than the 9th which is between two shortish fours in 8 & 10.