[Sean_A]

The same old story popped up this weekend.  Most of the bunkers at Harlech had water in them, but the club didn't declare these GUR for the day.  Some guys thought we should play our rules and take free drops some thought we should stick to the rules of golf and take relief in a bunker and a penalty to drop out of the bunker.  I can certainly see where many would think the proper rule is stupid, but it doesn't off focus one's attention to avoiding bunkers knowing that you will likely face a penalty drop! 

I spose my questions are:

1. Is it a good rule to keep flooded bunkers in play and why?

2. Would it be better to take away the rakes and make the bunkers through the green which allows relief for casual water - knowing that the bunkers will be in rough shape most of the time because folks don't rake them?

Ciao 

[TEPaul]

Sean:

I can pretty much guarantee you that the Rules-makers will never put anything in the Rules of Golf where a bunker could be considered "through the green." Of course I'm talking about the things the Rules-makers consider to be bunkers. These so-called "waste bunkers" that so many courses have today that in reality look an awful lot like bunkers are considered to be "through the green" by Rules-makers but the Rules-makers do not even recognize the term "waste bunker" and I doubt they ever will. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,
It's too bad that the ruling bodies don't allow sections b & c of rule 28 to apply to a ball in a bunker, then you could drop outside of a flooded one and wouldn't be forced to play a ball from the spot, or as near to that spot, from which the original ball was last played.
 

[BVince]

I personally don't think flooded bunkers should be left in play and treated as a water hazard because that was not the original intent of the hazard.   That being said, if as long as all people play by the same rules then the best player would still prevail. 

[Chris Cupit]

I personally don't think flooded bunkers should be left in play and treated as a water hazard because that was not the original intent of the hazard. 

I didn't think that was what Sean meant.

If a bunker is flooded and an abnormal ground conditions exist for a ball lying in the bunker, the rules allow you to lift, clean and drop a ball without penalty but you must stay in the bunker.  Under penalty of one stroke you can drop outside the bunker.  I think that is fair.

But if the bunkers are completely flooded where  the player is pretty much forced to drop outside the bunker (and forced to accept a penalty stroke) to proceed then that bunker should be declared GUR AND "through the green" which would of course allow for a drop outside the bunker itself assuming that the nearest point of relief no nearer the hole is in fact outside the bunker..

 

[JohnV]

Sean,
It's too bad that the ruling bodies don't allow sections b & c of rule 28 to apply to a ball in a bunker, then you could drop outside of a flooded one and wouldn't be forced to play a ball from the spot, or as near to that spot, from which the original ball was last played.

Jim,  Under the rules for Abnormal Ground Conditions (Rule 25), you will see that when your ball lies in casual water in a bunker, you can drop outside the bunker keeping the point where it was between you and the hole for a one stroke penalty.  This is what you want to be able to do under rule 28b.  So, while you can't get out by declaring it unplayable, you can get out for a penalty.

[Jeff Grossman]

I completely agree with Chris on this one.  The only way a bunker should be marked GUR or taken out of play is if it is completely unplayable.  After all it is a HAZARD!

[BCrosby]

A weird story from weekend reading.

Apparently the guttie floated. During a rainy Open at TOC in the 19th C., the bunkers and greens flooded, but play was not halted. Players were expected to hit their balls as they floated in the bunkers. Which raised all sorts of questions.

On the greens an issue arrose as to whether a ball was deemed holed out when it traveled to the hole, but continued to float on top or where it went in the hole and then floated back to the top.

Bob

[JohnV]

My article on bunkers being through the green can be found here http://freedrop.wordpress.com/longer-articles/if-bunkers-were-not-hazards/

[Sean_A]

I didn't raise the issue out of concern for fairness.  Anyway you play the game is fair so long as we all play by the same rules.  I was more concerned with practicality in terms of maintenance.  It would seem to me that a lot of effort could be saved if the area in question were not tagged as a hazard.  There is less concern with drainage and keeping the bunker to a certain standard.  One thing I don't like about the current rule is that the bunker is treated differently from the rest of the course.  If there is no free drop from casual water in a bunker I would rather that be the case on the entire course.  If folks feel a course is unplayable then cancel the day's play.  I think this is better than handling the ball so much free of penalty. 

Ciao

[JohnV]

Sean, there is a free drop from casual water in a bunker.  It is just that it has to be in the bunker.  If you want to get out of the bunker, play it just like a water hazard (with the exception that you use the point where the ball is at vs the point of entry.)

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

Interesting article and a good example for some on here of all the various things that need to be considered FIRST before Rules changes can be effectively made.

Also it's an interesting article on how to consider ALL the advantages and disadvantages that would be a consequence of such a Rule change as making bunkers "Through the Green."

The thing that interests me most is the fact that it would not be prohibited to ground one's club and if that fact would begin to lead the way somehow for bunker sand surfaces to NOT be so well maintained! 

[George Pazin]

Interesting and well thought out article, John (no surprise there).

The biggest problem to me is that you'd see bozos doing 20 practice swings taking out sand each time to gauge the conditions, kinda like the folks who think nothing of ripping 3 divots in the fairway or digging up the rough with repetitive practice swings.

Imagine Shivas standing watching someone take practice blast after practice blast in a greenside bunker, then going into his routine, then blasting out, then lining up his cheater line....

 

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

One of the advantages that I see with deeming bunkers "Through the Green" in the Rules is it would make dealing with Rules questions to do with bunkers via The Rules of Golf book easier for the golfing public.

There are so many rulings that take place in and around bunkers and have you ever noticed how some struggle trying to find the answers since bunkers do not have a Rule of their own just as "Hazards" don't?

I've often thought there should be a Rule for "Hazards" as water hazards and bunkers are the only hazard in golf.

Some people seem to look for information on bunkers in Rule 26 thinking it should be there since they are hazards too.

Your proposal would preclude that and making dealing with rules questions to do with bunkers via the Rule book a lot easier.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

You know George Pazin has a good point there about practice swings in bunkers. Do you realize if golfers can do that without penalty it is going to have one massive maintenance effect over time on things like bunker faces and perhaps even the green area just over the bunkers. It will be something akin to daily and constant sand top-dressing!   

The contours of areas near sand bunkers will consequently change a whole lot faster than they have in the history of golf and architecture.

[JohnV]

Tom,

I've thought about the possibilty of having a "Hazards" Rule instead of having it scattered throughout the Rule book.  The problem with it as I see it is that if you take the pieces from the other rules, you would have to make each of those rules reference the Hazards Rule instead.

If the new rule just contained what is currently 13-4 it might make sense, but to move the things from Abnormal Ground Conditions, Unplayable, Obstructions etc there seems to defeat the purpose to me.

[Wayne_Freedman]

Most golfers rarely follow the letter of all rules in casual friendly games. If you wanted to be a Nazi, you could find all kinds of minimal infractions.  But who likes playing with Nazis?

If a hazard doesn't drain properly, then where should one cast the blame? If it was designed as sand, and not water, and the course fails to maintain it, then I think a free drop is entirely in order.  When my group plays a certain golf course in winter, we know we will face this exact problem, and  we stipulate a free drop to dry spots in those bunkers.  It's our feeling that the game should be fun, and the course, equitable. To heck with the rules, in this case, until the course declares these bunkers to be water during winter (which would make more sense). 
Otherwise, we follow the rules pretty much to the letter...at least, within friendly reason.

But, I might add that casual rules are another reason to count only  tournament scores when calculating handicaps. We should do that.

[JohnV]

When my group plays a certain golf course in winter, we know we will face this exact problem, and  we stipulate a free drop to dry spots in those bunkers. 

That is the rule, where's the problem?  Unless you are moving closer to the hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

John,
Yes, that's what I'd like to see. I think a golfer should have the ability to drop outside the bunker, with penalty, for an unplayable.
I don't see the harm in this, even in highly competitive play. Of course, it probably wouldn't get used much under those circumstances.
It seems to me that it would even up the relief options between sand and water and a possible positive side effect might be greater acceptance of fiercer bunkering because the player has a reasonable out, i.e., the one stroke.

[Wayne_Freedman]

We might move it a bit closer inside the bunker if that is the only sandy play.

What would you recommend? No closer, but outside? Wouldn't that make an easier shot?
It's a flippin' yard or two, and inconsequential.

This stuff is why we should play only for small change.

When my group plays a certain golf course in winter, we know we will face this exact problem, and  we stipulate a free drop to dry spots in those bunkers. 

That is the rule, where's the problem?  Unless you are moving closer to the hole.

[jim_lewis]

If it rains enough to flood bunkers, I ain't playing, period! Problem solved.

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