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Brent Boardman

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2008, 04:19:46 AM »
Brent:

I was talking about a different project, but I'm trying the same approach on the one you mentioned -- not for sustainability issues, but because it doesn't look like they have enough land for 18 holes as it stands today.


Tom,

I was just curious.  I'm actually proposing a routing of two six-hole loops for that property for my project, just to think a little outside the box.



Brent

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2008, 05:53:56 AM »
Tom, did you put any 9-holers in the Confidential Guide and have you ever seen a 9-holer that would be 7+ on the 'Doak scale' (ie Dunes Club or RW&N). Also how good a 9-holer do you believe you could of build on the Old Head and would the proprietors be able to get as much play at those massive green fees.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2008, 09:38:55 AM »
Cut the staff in half, pay them well, and figure out a way to get it done.

If you have a decent irrigation system, fertigation will save time, labor and fuel, plus liquid N is much cheaper than granular and saves a lot of energy on the conversion, hauling and spreading.

Forget stripping all together as it's a huge waste. Contour mow with production equipment and alternate directions weekly.

Don't fert the roughs.

Buy the new green’s mowers that have small gas engines and generators that power the reels. Half the gas and no hydraulic oil to dispose of...similar fwy units will be out soon.

Cut down trees so you can grow healthy turf that doesn't need all the chemicals.

Establish true economic thresholds for all pests. A few weeds or brown patch in the roughs, or a little cutworm damage doesn't change the way we play the game at all.

Most importantly, and a point often missed as the focus is always environmental, find a way to keep a high quality staff together. If you really care about sustainability, the people that practice it need the training, the time, and the support to make it happen. It's a quantum leap in golf management, and it's not system or process management based where you can just plug someone in like you can on an assembly line. You have to think and reason to make it work. Put together a good staff and keep them.

Kyle Harris

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2008, 11:06:51 AM »
Establish true economic thresholds for all pests. A few weeds or brown patch in the roughs, or a little cutworm damage doesn't change the way we play the game at all.


This should be an essay written by every turf student in the country.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2008, 01:37:33 PM »
Sustainability and Golf ='s don't build any more golf course.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2008, 02:38:55 PM »
If I asked you to reduce the use of fossil fuels by 50% for the maintenance and/or construction of your golf course what would you suggest?

 I would suggest reading this thread.  Good stuff in here.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2008, 02:54:56 PM »
I remember a well known super who posts here on GCA.com (athough all to infrequently).  A few years ago, we were trembling at the idea of fuel going from 1.75 to 2.50!  I commented that it would really screw up the budgets at courses.  He reminded me that the gallons of fuel (gasoline for engines) was only something like 8000 gallons a year (at a year around open course).  So, he stated an extra 6-8 grand on the budget wasn't going to be that big of a consequence. 

With that in mind (and perhaps some of the other super's reading here might post their yearly gas or deisel gallon usage) we might look at the cost factor as a strong or not so strong driving factor of reduced fossil fuel usage.  If the financial hit stil at 3.50 heading to $4 a gallon still isn't a driving force, then 'only' social or environmental considerations may be the impetus.

PS: I purposely left out the other factors of reducing nutrient, chemical apps., to focus just on fuel...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2008, 02:59:25 PM »
Also, if gallon usage is in that 6000-8000 a year range, my guess is that more fossil fuel is consumed in one hour on a 1 mile stretch of one of the super freeways of L.A. at rush hour than the whole golf course in a year!  You pocket protector guys could do the math way better than I...  ::) ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2008, 03:19:27 PM »
RJ,
Problem is so much of what we use is tied to energy costs… fert, chem, fuel itself, pipe, anything that has to be delivered...all those costs are going through the roof. Fert is climbing like you can't believe right now...and then you have to pay to get it delivered.
Maintenance costs are skyrocketing...either everyone pays more, or we learn to be more efficient...or some of both, but as the candidates love to say, change is coming.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2008, 03:26:31 PM »
Yeah Don, I guess my comment of purposely leaving out the other costs of nutrient and chem apps was unrealistically soft headed if we are going to address this.  ::) ;)

But, can you give us a rough estimate of a yearly gallonage consumption of fuels for some of the courses you've worked on, which I imagine were all full year operations.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2008, 08:52:08 PM »
RJ,

I agree that fuel use needs to be looked at within the context of the club's budgets.  Again, I don't believe it is necessary in order to save the planet.

Your right, its probably too late.

We all better hope that there really is no correlation between CO2 levels and temperature. Or bye bye seaside golf courses.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2008, 11:11:18 PM »
No Carts.  Therefore, no cart paths.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2008, 08:12:51 AM »
Thanks everyone.  Getting fertilizer and chemical companies also in the mix in the production of the products for golf would also be a good.

Adam Russell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2008, 09:02:21 AM »
Build your courses by hand, then use waste from construction to build buildings that add to the health of the environment.

The construction aspect of building a golf course is far more damaging to the environment to me than  a golf course with a smart super afterwards. Put the right people together with the regional/contextual research of the site and the course will thrive in all realms. BTW I do think someone will have to build a course completely waste-free from planning to completion and continue waste-free to bring the public to the golf course=sustainable side. Too many see  golf courses in the same light as they see oil companies.
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2008, 12:06:51 PM »
I'll chime in a little bit here, as my turf discussion class has been working at this subject for the past 2 months.  Specifically, we are trying to come up with a plan for a carbon neutral golf course, which has been rather difficult to come by.

At first, the numbers we had led us to believe that a combination of mowing, irrigation, and fertilizing was the culprit, with mowing having the largest impact.  Since I love a lot of short grass, this had me worried.

We came upon some new papers and numbers and found that it was actually pesticides that had the most impact, and nothing else was even close.  This made me happier, for I believe this to be one thing that can be easily cut down.  The reason the numbers for pesticides are so high is that we are looking at embodied energy as well--production, shipping, etc.  Embodied energy is really what sets golf courses back from a carbon perspective.

Now, our final set of numbers has fertilizers as having the largest carbon footprint because of energy in production and amounts applied.

Overall, the best thing one can do to make a course more carbon neutral is to have less maintained playing area, sadly.  We figure that when looking at sequestration rates, about 200 acres of trees are needed to offset the carbon loss of about 100 acres of maintained turf.  That ain't good.

As you can tell though, our process took some dramatic turns with just the discovery of different numbers.  This whole things is pretty complex and cloudy right now, and there really isn't anyone else looking too much into it at this point, which is why numbers are so varied and hard to come by.  While we may not have it exactly, I can comfortably say that cutting maintained turf is one sure way of reducing the carbon footprint, and reducing fertilizer and pesticide input will help as well.  Kind of a lot of work to get to a conclusion that is so obvious.



"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2008, 06:16:21 PM »
Didn't Goethe say "Everyone sweeps his own doorstep and the whole world will be clean"?  Or something like that?

But getting to Michael Powers' and Ryan Farrow's comments, does the thread ask the right question?  Following up on what Brett said, maybe it's not about how many trees are needed to offset maintained turf but rather how much a golf course with a "sustainable" plan might offset a brownfield, a coal mine, or a factory -- yes, no, maybe?

Is a golf course just a drop in the carbon-offset bucket?  (I will say the 10 courses at Mission Hills vs. Quangdong air pollution...gotta think they're going to need 10,000 more courses...of course the crazy lengths courses are getting to, maybe not...)

Questions like:

1. How do golf courses' carbon footprints compare to other land uses?  Sure they're worse than wetlands, but put a golf course in a flood plain and that's better than houses and industry, right? Are they better than farms? (They've got to be better than corn fields, right?)

2. If golf courses' carbon footprint can be reduced by 50 percent, how does that improve the calculus for them as sinks? Or can golf courses be codesigned with carbon sinks? As with landfills, is there any dual-use potential?  Could dual-use potential offer a new, economical model for golf?

3. Are there any lessons learned from landfill courses or places like Old Works?

Great thread!

Thanks,
Mark

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2008, 06:31:57 PM »
Thanks everyone.  Getting fertilizer and chemical companies also in the mix in the production of the products for golf would also be a good.

Tim,

Not sure what you mean by that.  It may be a fairly quite revolution, but the chem and fertilizer companies already have been producing chemicals that require smaller doses to be effective, are less mobile in the soil and break up easier, and stick to where they are applied better in general.  I would say they are on board and its been a big boon to the overall ecological improvement of golf courses, even if I don't think golf is a bad environmental option at all.  But, it can be better.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2008, 07:33:53 PM »
Hi Jeff,
It was an incomplete thought about embodied energy.  That is, since a large portion (30-40%) over the life of a golf course is in the chemical and fertilizer application maybe the ASGCA and the GCSAA might have a certification program where suppliers could get certified if they reduce their use of fossil fuels by 50% over the next 5 years.  Of course there are economic factors that are going to direct this reduction but it doesn’t mean our golf societies should not promote it, discuss it and reward the best examples in our industries.

Still thinking, but it is where I am headed. The subject needs to be brought to the forefront, hopefully to show the positive side of golf and the environment, as we have done with other environmental issues.


Peter Wagner

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2008, 11:11:51 PM »
Didn't Goethe say "Everyone sweeps his own doorstep and the whole world will be clean"?  Or something like that?

Ah, now we're getting to the good stuff!

Goethe was quite prolific in his sayings and quotes... you guys might like these:

"In nature we never see anything isolated, but everything in connection with something else which is before it, beside it, under it and over it. "

"I call architecture frozen music."

"If God had wanted me otherwise, He would have created me otherwise. " (My personal favorite)

"Happiness is a ball after which we run wherever it rolls, and we push it with our feet when it stops. "

And yes "Let everyone sweep in front of his own door, and the whole world will be clean. "

Lastly, something for the archies... "Every artist in some way portrays himself in his works, even if it be against his will. "

All by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.  Must have been a cool dude!

Best,
Peter

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2008, 01:54:58 AM »
"If God had wanted me otherwise, He would have created me otherwise. " (My personal favorite)



Well that's one hell of a catch all get out clause if ever I heard one!

tlavin

Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2008, 11:54:11 AM »
Another gas guzzler at golf clubs is ornamentals.

Flower and shrub beds can require a lot of traffic too and from the maintenance shop headquarters, and they do not necessarily further the golf business.

Every ornamental addition to a golf club has to be evaluated on a cost to benefit analysis.

I know of great golf clubs, where people are waiting in line to join those clubs, and they do not have flower or shurbs beds ad-nauseum.

In 25years of maintaining golf courses no one has ever complimented me on my flower beds, but I have had a lot of compliments about my greens.

This is surely one of the best ways to reduce the "carbon footprint" of a golf course operation.  If you want to see flowers, go to a conservatory.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2008, 12:34:59 PM »
Thankfully we have scientists that are looking into climate, carbon footprints etc., going ahead blind is no answer. No doubt there will be over reaction in some areas, but I think it will prove beneficial to everyone's health in the long run.

The population in the city of Montreal is ca. 1.9 mil. people. Just it's truck traffic for 1 day generates the same amount of exhaust air that  it's 1.9 mil people breathe out over 131 days.
Three days of truck traffic in the city is roughly equal to one year of breathing for its inhabitants.  Looking at it another way, 1 day of truck traffic in Montreal  generates the same amount of exhaust as 248,900,000 people.

That's only the trucks!

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2008, 01:36:24 PM »
Jim Kennedy,

I'd be interested to know what group or agency published the statistics you quoted. I find them highly irrelevant.

Pistons in an engine pull air and fuel in and push out air and combustion byproducts. The volume of air it displaces isn't important, it's the amount of unburned hydrocarbons and other pollutant solids that go back in out atmosphere that matter. Not all of the exhaust is pollution.

Please divulge where you got these figures. I also wonder how they arrived at this. Not all engines are equal size, nor are all peoples lung capacity, but I imagine it's some sort of "average"the researchers(?) arrived at.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2008, 01:43:16 PM »
Joe,
No sense in my posting the link, if they're highly irrelevant to you now they probably will remain that way.

I started working on cars when I was 11 years old, at my next door neighbors garage. One thing IC engines don't push out is oxygen.

   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sustainability and Golf
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2008, 01:48:32 PM »
Nor did I imply that IC engines don't pollute. I just think these types of stat's are a....smokescreen......(I hated to type that!). For my knowledge, tell me if humans exhaust oxygen. I don't remember from science class.

So you won't share where you got your stats? I guess Google or Yahuckaby will have to be my friend.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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