[David_Madison]

How far north can these grasses be used on greens, specifically in the southeast? Are there any strains that are more cold-tolerant than others? Can they survive central NC winters, where there are frequent frosts, and night-time temps in the 20's or colder? With A1/A4 and other bents, it seems that you're fighting for survival from mid-spring to mid-fall, during the best time of year for playing. While lots of clubs in SC and GA have switched over to the hybrid bermuda's, I was wondering if clubs as far north as ours can think of making a switch.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
I don't know your climate, so no way would I recommend any grass...but it does takes a significant cold spell to kill bermuda. It will survive most winter temps as long as it's not iced over or sub zero for a long period. I've had it survive week long spells of 15-20 degree temps with no problems. The issue is not survival as much as what makes a good golfing turf, and what bermuda really needs is warm nights. If you are in an area where your nights are cool (<60) well into June, then I'd probably stick with bent. Bermuda will do great in high heat/humidity areas, but you need to be sure your season is long enough for it to thrive. That's the problem with areas like high desert; even though it gets hot, the nights stay cool for a long time. Yes, bent can struggle in the heat of the summer, but sometimes it's still the best choice. 

[S. Huffstutler]

David:

I have listed a link of courses in your State that have Champion Dwarf Bermuda greens, maybe that will  be of some help. You can also contact Morris or Mike Brown at Champion turf Farms and they will give you a straight answer about whether or not you are a good candidate for success with Bermudagrass.

I hope thins helps.

Regards,

Steve

http://championturffarms.com/4_champion/05%20Courses%20with%20Champion/Coursesframepage.htm

[David_Madison]

Steve and Don:

Great information. Thank you both.

Note - we're located in central NC, an hour north of Pinehurst. Summers are hot, springs and falls moderate to warm.  Nights are over 60 degrees usually by May, and stay that way into September.

[John Moore II]

David--I would agree with them that Champion might be a good thing to have on the course. However, I am not certain what the dormancy is with that strand. I have heard that it does not go totally dormant, but I would feel almost certain it gets nearly dormant, possibly to the point of being purpleish in color, even some bents do that. If the grass does go dormant like that, you will be forced to overseed the greens in order to maintain fair playing conditions. That would cause poorer conditions into the spring. If you club is truly considering a total green renovation, then perhaps a good Bent strain with a SubAir system under the greens would be the most efficient, assuming your club has that kind of funding. That way the greens could stay adequately ventilated in the summer months.

[Lou_Duran]

Don M,

I talked to couple of superintendents in the OKC and Tulsa areas who aren't sold on Champions that far north.  Also, they claim that some of the fairway hybrids like 419 don't seem to do well up there.  In the DFW area, both seem to do just fine.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Lou,
That's sort of what I'm saying. In some areas it's not an easy choice. I was in the high desert in AZ, 3000 ft elevation, and IMO bent was the better choice because even though the summers could be tough, the bermuda never really got moving until June. Courses in my area were about evenly split between bent and bermuda, and IMO, the bent had the better surface for most of the year, and it didn't need to be overseeded.
It can be a tough call and all factors need to be considered...rounds, water quality, rootzone mix, budget...

David,
I want to second what Steve wrote about the Brown family from Champion Turf farms. They know more about growing bermuda grass than anyone I know. We planted our course with their grass, 419 through the green and Emerald on the greens and they were, and continue to be, very helpful. They are honest and very practical. They'll tell you what works and what doesn't. If your considering making a change, the first call I'd make would be to Morris Brown.

Mr. Moore,
Overseeded Champion has poor conditions in the spring? Please explain as the champion/mini verde greens I've seen and managed were excellent in the spring. Mr. Madison mentioned A1 & A4 bent, are they not good strains?
Champion doesn't go dormant? And if it does, you can't play on it? Are you a PGA guy who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Are you a PGA guy who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Mr. Mahaffey-VERY well played....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Kyle Harris]

Mini-verde greens are the best putting surfaces I've played in Florida. I have no idea how far north they can go, but apparently they're not terribly common in Florida yet.

[John Moore II]

Don--Where have you played on overseeded Champion greens? If in Florida, then they will be great because the grass never really goes dormant. Only a semi-dormant (it never turns brown/tan). In NC, I am fairly certain that it will go completely dormant (I have been told by some, most of whom I do not believe that Champion does not go dormant) and if so, will require a fairly dense overseed in order to maintain a green playing surface. In any condition, the competition with the bermuda when the grass is coming out of dormancy will not allow for the most ideal surface conditions in early spring. I have never played on Mini-Verdi that I know of. As for A1/A4 when I have played on them, the greens have been excellent, and I've played on many in the Central NC area.
--No, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

[Kyle Harris]

Don--Where have you played on overseeded Champion greens? If in Florida, then they will be great because the grass never really goes dormant. Only a semi-dormant (it never turns brown/tan). In NC, I am fairly certain that it will go completely dormant (I have been told by some, most of whom I do not believe that Champion does not go dormant) and if so, will require a fairly dense overseed in order to maintain a green playing surface. In any condition, the competition with the bermuda when the grass is coming out of dormancy will not allow for the most ideal surface conditions in early spring. I have never played on Mini-Verdi that I know of. As for A1/A4 when I have played on them, the greens have been excellent, and I've played on many in the Central NC area.
--No, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

I spent an entire winter in Florida managing dormant greens.

[Anthony_Nysse]

JKM,
  I've played on dormant/overseeded Champion greens in  northern SC and also on Hilton Head. I think that they overseed and transition much better than tifeagle. These greens were as good as any overseed in the area and the course was a public, small budget club. you do not have to overseed heavy to retain a green color on a dormant surface. 6-8# will give you enough color and coverage, 10# to be safe. but if you're worried about a green color, just put a little extra dye in the spray tank next time and you'll have all the green you want. in general, painting is the way to go if you want color.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[John Moore II]

Tony--I was going with what David was saying in wanting Champion. If you put Champion on the ground in central NC, you will have to do something in winter to keep it green. I was trying to make the point that Bent would probably be a better choice in that area.

Kyle--I meant to say South Florida. In northern Florida, I understand that yes the greens are dormant.

[Don_Mahaffey]

JKM,
I've played on overseeded Champion in AZ, CA and TX. And I  guarantee you the bermuda was dormant.

Early Spring overseeded ultradwarf greens are usually fantastic, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

And you can lightly overseed ultradwarfs in areas where it goes dormant.

[David_Madison]

Our club has A1/A4 greens, with a sub-air system and fans at practically every green. The greens are fantastic mid-October thru early March. They get big-core aerated in March, and 4 weeks later we have good greens. Then they are cored in early/mid May and again in mid-June. No use arguing that this is excessive, as this is what our superintendent insists is necessary for the greens to make it through our summers. In the summer, they are left a tad longer and carefully nursed to help them get through the high heat and humidity. Then they're cored again around Labor Day, and don't return to good putting surfaces until early October.

What's the point in having greens that are in recovery 10 weeks during the prime spring season and then 4 more weeks in the prime fall time, and having them at their best for a long time during the least important time of the year? I want to know if there's anything out there worth exploring that flips this in the right direction, where the greens can be in good putting condition the greatest possible amount of time during the prime playing time of the year and where the heavy care and/or less than ideal putting conditions happen when play is down anyway (yet at the same time the grass will survive our extremes either way.)   

[Anthony_Nysse]

Our club has A1/A4 greens, with a sub-air system and fans at practically every green. The greens are fantastic mid-October thru early March. They get big-core aerated in March, and 4 weeks later we have good greens. Then they are cored in early/mid May and again in mid-June. No use arguing that this is excessive, as this is what our superintendent insists is necessary for the greens to make it through our summers. In the summer, they are left a tad longer and carefully nursed to help them get through the high heat and humidity. Then they're cored again around Labor Day, and don't return to good putting surfaces until early October.

What's the point in having greens that are in recovery 10 weeks during the prime spring season and then 4 more weeks in the prime fall time, and having them at their best for a long time during the least important time of the year? I want to know if there's anything out there worth exploring that flips this in the right direction, where the greens can be in good putting condition the greatest possible amount of time during the prime playing time of the year and where the heavy care and/or less than ideal putting conditions happen when play is down anyway (yet at the same time the grass will survive our extremes either way.)   

I wouldnt say that is excessive at all for bentgrass to survive in the south. in fact, to 1/4 tine aerify every 3-4 weeks in the summer on bentgrass is ideal-keeps gasses exchanging and water moving down and out. At the end of the day, bentgrass is a superior putting surface to ultradwarfs.  Each has its climate limitations along with their cultural practice needs. no one grass is perfect in the transition zone. Each graass has a time of the year where its not ideal.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CCp
F. Worth, TX

[John Moore II]

Don--I am currently playing on Champion greens, and I would say that now is early spring. The greens are not what I would call fantastic. They are mid grade at best. I am generally not a fan of bermuda in a place where bent can survive. I have never worked or played at a place that aerifies that much, at least not a large tine aerification, so I might wonder if it was me. But I trust your Super.

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