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JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
On the 7000 yard thread, Adrian Stiff has made the claim that non-tour caliber golfers have experienced a reduced strategic challenge due to the equipment advances that let them hit the ball so much further (especially in the air) than comparable players years ago.

Point conceded!

But, the increased green speeds attainable today would seem to present a much different challenge to players as well...a more difficult one.

If our goal is to keep the games challenges static (as it seems the "roll-backers" want to do) shouldn't we flatten out greens to present a similar challenge to years ago?

Or should we just cut the grass higher?

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
I've been thinking this since I started watching the films from the 50's on the Golf Channel.  They played in significantly poorer conditions than we see today.

I'll add that I played the muni I grew up on (Sheridan Park in Tonawanda, NY) last year.  About 20 years after I had last played.  And the conditions were much better.

It's not just high-end - better conditions are working their way through the industry.

Our new superintendent has pledged to cut irrigation by 60% this year - I wonder how this will affect play :)  (I can't wait for some firm and fast slightly sepia fairways!)

Adrian_Stiff

  • Total Karma: 0
Jes- I don't think there is much more that can be done to increase green speeds anymore since at a 14 stimp a ball will pretty much fall to the lowest point, so in that regard greens cant get any faster unless as you say we flatten them which destroys the challenge anyway, so I think greens speeds are kinda fine now. The older greens from the early 60s were probably running at 6 or 7.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Jes II

A very interesting topic.

Yes, things have changed and the state of the modern course has improved. But due to environmental pressures this will change again in the near future. Not talking about ball/club technology. The constraints on water and cost to accommodate this problem by the average course/club is going to cause a major upheaval.  It will also affect the way new courses are designed - in formation of greens and fairways relating to water conservation and choice of grass. Greens will have their grass replaced due to water consumption and the speed will revert back to that of the earlier days.

I have mentioned it before and will do so again as Ian Andrew’s current articles ‘The Future of Golf Course Architecture in Canada’ is excellent, very informative and has clearly opens a very important debate that needs to be addressed soon, before central government starts laying down more Draconian conservation laws.

I believe this will affect in part the fairways and certainly the greens, playing much slower in the near future, although I expect this will be more relevant in North America than in the UK. Well in my opinion

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
I think if you asked a grass wizard to create a strain that needed half the water and could be maintained at similar heights an additional benefit could be less maintenance costs (mowing frequency) they could do it...and quickly.

I don't think market conditions will force a slow down of greens.

Are we obligated to maintain some standard putting challenge? On the old school courses, lag putting has clearly become increasingly more difficult, how should that be addressed?

TEPaul

Sully:

I think putting challenge via increased green speed has basically hit a point around which it will sort of level out into the future. The reason I say that is because at these speeds we are really into a new phenomenon of physics I call "ball creep" which never really existed before green speeds hit around 11, 12+ on the stimpmeter. The jist is with the degree of "ball creep" at these speeds there's just no practical reason in playability to even try to get much faster.

To me the real key amongst clubs is simply to resolve not to recontour greens in the future in the name of additional speed.

Again, playability on and around greens with these present speeds is now into a realm of physics it has never been in before.

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Ball Creep - great phrase!

Do you think we're heading to an era of flat greens?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Jes,

Not sure if strategy is decreased at all, rather, I think it has just changed, forever and for everyone.

For instance, bunkers put in at 250 or 266 off the back tee used to be flanking bunkers.  Recently, a player told me how much he liked those as "carry bunkers" and how he tried to hit the back slope of the support mounding for a turbo boost.

Even without bunkers, etc. there will still always be some kind of strategy, even if internal (don't go left, don't go left, don't go left......damn, for some reason it went left!)

As to green speeds and putting, recall how JN used to say how important it was to be on the right part of the green at Augusta back in his prime. Those were the fastest greens of the time, no?  Doesn't improved putting and faster green speeds increase the premium of being below the hole?  And increase the strategy because of the near impossibility of making a downhill putt?

The big picture is, to me, that everything evolves and changes nearly constantly, including golf. I don't think its feasible to take the game back to 1925, even if we wanted to.  And, if we did, would we replicate what was then the current topic - how to get conditions better, say, to something we actually see, rather than dream about, today?  Because that's what they were about then, almost certainly.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

"Do you think we're heading to an era of flat greens?"

Dan:

With some clubs, of course we are and we've been in that era for quite some time. I don't know that I would call it an era of flat greens but we certainly are headed down a road of less slope and contour angle than in the past.

My sense is that it is only the thoughtless clubs that are going down this road in the name of ever increasing green speed. I think the more intelligent clubs understand that it's not necessary to maximize challenge in playability. Maximum challenge in this context is very much here right now and "ball creep" is the very thing that should logically stop it on various slope!

What has finally happened is "playability"/challenge and physics have run right smack into one another and there ain't a damn thing that any club, architect or any Man is going to be able to do to alter the realities of it at a particular constant!  ;)

I guess some joker could probably try to manufacture some golf ball that's kind of sticky and would consequently increase "friction" on a putting surface but I really don't think that's going to happen.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 12:02:03 PM by TEPaul »

Jon Wiggett

  • Total Karma: 0
Jes I would go with higher cutting height because even though the putt will be slower it will still allow for more interesting break and puttable pin positions. I think that the agro advance has not led to the best being better but rather an increase in the average condition of playing surfaces and the over maintenance of the surrounding areas.

I do however think that we golfers often suffer from the 'grass is always greener' syndrome when it comes to the standard of our home clubs. The main thing is that the course is enjoyable to play.


Patrick_Mucci_Jr

On the 7000 yard thread, Adrian Stiff has made the claim that non-tour caliber golfers have experienced a reduced strategic challenge due to the equipment advances that let them hit the ball so much further (especially in the air) than comparable players years ago.

Point conceded!

But, the increased green speeds attainable today would seem to present a much different challenge to players as well...a more difficult one.

If our goal is to keep the games challenges static (as it seems the "roll-backers" want to do) shouldn't we flatten out greens to present a similar challenge to years ago? [colorf=green]

You don't get it.  It's obvious that you've been hanging with TEPaul again.

Think of the issue in these terms.

IF the greens remained as they were 40 years ago, at 8, and weren't sped up, imagine how scoring would have improved dramatically without those dicey, fast greens we see today.

Then, try to understand why the scoring would have improved.

The greens would have been static in terms of presentation and while putting would have improved due to better, rounder golf balls and incremental increases in talented putters, they wouldn't have been responsible for the lion's share of the improved scoring.  In other words it WOULDN'T have been at the green end.

The culprit is the vastly increased distance in combination with straighter shots.

It's the ability of the golfer, vis a vis hi-tech, to circumvent the  process of interfacing with the architecture, which is what the architect envisioned and intended when he designed the golf course.

When ANGC and other golf courses have to buy MORE land to lengthen the holes to make them relevant in the context of presenting a challenge, you know that something is amiss.

How many courses have run out of real estate ?
How many of those courses have been deemed, "no longer relevant" in terms of presenting a challenge ?

And, it's not because the greens have been sped up, which by the way has led to the disfiguration of so many great greens.  Great greens that lost their contours and slopes in order to accomodate high speeds because high speed was the ONLY way to offset the onslaught of high tech and it's ability to obsolete the golf course.

Augusta is the only hope for developing a "tournament" ball that would restore the relevance of the architectural features, as opposed to the continued lengthening of holes until you run out of real estate.
[/color]

Or should we just cut the grass higher?

If you did, it wouldn't take you long to understand the toll that the quantum leaps in hi-tech have taken upon interfacing with the architecture and the play of the game.
[/color]


TEPaul

This is a note of today from Ron Prichard who very much enjoys reading some threads on GOLFCLUBATLAS but does not have the time to post much (he says he also doesn't like to type much  :'( ).

I spoke to him just now and he said it's OK to post this in its entirety as he would like to see this particular thread keep going in a useful and truthful way:

From Ron Prichard:

"Hi Tom;
                    Hope you're having a peaceful Easter Weekend.
 
                     I was just checking a few conversations on gca. The thread on distance, (playing equipment), technology vs agronomic improvement, I imagine has been discussed many times before; but this is a major factor of serious concern today. Both of these "improvements", are forcing changes that can only be viewed as sorrowful. In each case, it's a matter of "one step forward for the equipment and turf technicians, - two steps backward for the Royal and Ancient Game".
 
                      And while the equipment manufacturers and turf specialists, delight in their achievements, - the game suffers.
 
                       Today, on a putting surface cut at 125/1000ths of a inch, (that's an 1/8th of an inch for those of us who speak in plain english), a ball will continue to roll once, put in motion, on a slightly less than, 3% slope. (That's three feet drop in one hundred feet). For Jim Sullivan's understanding, when we uncovered the original Flynn putting surfaces on the nine holes which had been abandoned and grown over at Huntingdon Valley; we found those green's surfaces in excess of 5% slope almost everywhere, and portions that were once cuppable, at 7% slope. (Thus sadly, we had to slow down, flatten many portions of the original Flynn surfaces).
 
                        We are now in an era when superintendents proudly will say, and I heard this yesterday, "I'm mowing at 101/1000ths of an inch". (I would have bet they were a tenth). And so now, we're flattening putting surfaces to between one and a half percent - two and a half percent over a majority of the surface.  (With large enough putting surfaces we still have plenty of room to work in more dramatic topographic character, but just watch the "break" you see on television most weekends - the green surfaces will put you to sleep).
 
                         This as you know, is really a complicated set of sometimes conflicting dynamics - unfortunately the aims of most are either quite confused, or selfish, and have caused a loss of sight of what's most important - the protection of the game. From my point of view, and I know you do not agree with me, The United States Golf Association has been perhaps most responsible for failure to shoulder their distinct responsibility. (After all for years they have described themselve as "The Protector's of the Game"). And it began in the Frank Hannigan era whether you or anyone else accepts it. I personally took place in conversations in the early years before they had egg on their faces and began to spout - excuses and justification. Whether they will accept it or not, for years now they have had their heads buried so deep it's impossible to open one's eyes.
 
                         We, in my position can resist, and sometimes insist that folks not alter the brilliant green's surfaces of their old golf course, but there are then occassions where some hack comes in - and will match a club's short sighted ambition. 
 
                         The basis of the entire "problem", which encompasses much of what you fellows are talking about day after day; is recognition that we here in America have not only embraced a different form of golf, but we are shoving it down the throats of folks from Dubai to Dublin.
 
                          I'd better sign off, I'm getting into some thought and expression which I do not have time to properly elaborate.
 
                                                                    Take care;
                                                                        Ron"
 
 
 
                             


 

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

TEPaul,

Ron Prichard has been on record for decades with respect to his perspective on protecting the game and retaining, not disfiguring and destroying some of the greatest putting surfaces in golf.

You might also recall Mike Rewinsky's famous thread on "The need for speed" and what that quest was doing to the great putting surfaces in golf.

The disfiguration and destruction of great putting surfaces extends far beyond the body of those features, it extends to the play of the game, from putting, to recovery to approach shots.

Imagine the 1st green at NGLA if it was flat as a pancake.
Imagine the impact that would have on tee shots, approaches, recoveries and putts.

It would essentially neuter the hole, removing its character and unique challenge.

Ron Prichard "gets it".  Sadly, many others don't.

Jon Wiggett

  • Total Karma: 0
Patrick,

are you saying they speeded up the putting surface to combat the improvement in the long game but then also flattened them because they were to difficult ??? Then surely slow bumpy greens would be the answer! I say let them tour pros play on winter greens ;D

Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
The premise that faster greens are harder, especially on flatter greens is a myth, or, at least, an opinion I disagree with.
 
Ron P. hits the home run when he wrote
Quote
unfortunately the aims of most are either quite confused, or selfish, and have caused a loss of sight of what's most important - the protection of the game

I do also like Dr. Klein's famous comment on the subject.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

"I do also like Dr. Klein's famous comment on the subject."

Adam:

Do you mean that line when he says to a roomful of rich people that the first thing he learned about golf course architecture is that rich people can be really stupid too?

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Patrick,

are you saying they speeded up the putting surface to combat the improvement in the long game but then also flattened them because they were to difficult ???

It's more of a retrospective view than a prearranged plan.
There's no question that greens were flattened to accomodate higher speeds.
[/color]

Then surely slow bumpy greens would be the answer!


Why would "bumpy" greens be the answer ?

Why would slow greens be the answer ?
Greens weren't slow in 1980.
A stimp of 8 on contoured/sloped greens is satisfactory.
[/color]

I say let them tour pros play on winter greens ;D

Why not "HIGHLY" contoured/sloped greens instead ?
[/color]


TEPaul

Patrick:

8 on the stimp isn't going to cut it and that's not going to happen again with regularity on really quality courses. Even on some highly sloped and contoured greens speeds of up to or near 11 can almost always work.

ed_getka

  • Total Karma: 0
The ball creep that Tom Paul refers to is one of the big problems I see at some courses. Locally, Pasatiempo has had a problem with that in the past. It was much better the last time I was there.
   The problem with the ball creep is that it leads to defensive putting and a whole round of that does not make for a very enjoyable day. When your objective switches from trying to make a 1-putt to NOT making a 3-putt, then you have an issue that needs to be addressed IMO.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Patrick:

8 on the stimp isn't going to cut it and that's not going to happen again with regularity on really quality courses. Even on some highly sloped and contoured greens speeds of up to or near 11 can almost always work.

Then greens such as those at Winged Foot West, Merion and other courses will continue to be disfigured.

That's a hell of a trade off, flatter, less challenging greens in return for greater speeds.

# 1, 11 on the stimp on a daily and regular basis is largely a myth, a sometimes happenstance, controlled more by the weather rather than man.

I don't know of a golf course that maintains stimp readings of 11 on a daily basis from opening day until closing day.

Can you name just five (5) clubs that do ?

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 6
I had a case of the ball creep once...my Doc told me to turn my head and cough.....

Seriously...ball creep? Tom Paul, is that the kind of crap you dream up when you're out in your barn on a cold rainy Spring day?.... :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 05:45:34 pm
"Patrick:
8 on the stimp isn't going to cut it and that's not going to happen again with regularity on really quality courses. Even on some highly sloped and contoured greens speeds of up to or near 11 can almost always work."


"Then greens such as those at Winged Foot West, Merion and other courses will continue to be disfigured."


Patrick:

Why? I'm telling you that an 11 can work on most any existing slopes and contours. No one needs to recontour most any green at that speed!!


"#1, 11 on the stimp on a daily and regular basis is largely a myth, a sometimes happenstance, controlled more by the weather rather than man."

Yes, a real 11 on a regular basis IS largely a myth. I'm talking about 11 as a maximum greenspeed including a US Open on greens with slope and contour like Merion or Oakmont!

"I don't know of a golf course that maintains stimp readings of 11 on a daily basis from opening day until closing day.
Can you name just five (5) clubs that do?"

Who in the hell said anything about maintaining an 11 on a daily basis Patrick? I didn't say that. Where and why did you come up with that? READ WHAT I SAID! What I'm talking about is an 11 as MAXIMUM speed NOT as a daily or regular speed.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 11:42:12 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Joe:

BALL CREEP!

Seriously, what do you think I mean by it?

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Honestly, is there any need to have a green run quicker than 9ish for almost all play?  When folks begin to understand that speed doesn't equal good greens than we all be a lot better off in terms of reducing inflated maintenance costs, speed of play (I have always believed that very quick greens slow play down) and getting to play interesting greens.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jon Wiggett

  • Total Karma: 0
Patrick,

my second comment about bumpy, winter greens was a joke. The first is valid however. It shows what happens when there is no overall stratergy to combatting the advances in the game's equipment.