Why no world class course(s) in the Caribbean?

[Chip Gaskins]

with the tour in Puerto Rico this week it got me thinking.  the only real course talked about for its greatness in the Caribbean is Dye's Teeth of the Dog. 

is there something inherently wrong with the land, soil, topography, foreign ownership requirements, conservation laws, etc in the Caribbean that has precluded great course development?  is the soil too rocky?  i know some of the islands don't have nice sandy beaches.

i realize that many of the courses down there are resort courses and want just the opposite of what most on this board would want out of a golf course.  but if you can get Bandon, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Sand Hills, Cabot Links, etc to work, then it seems that you could certainly get it to work in the Caribbean with the ocean, year round warm weather, many direct flights from the east coast, etc

i know Doak has mention he has made several trips down there recently so there must someone out there that might have building a world class golf course (not pool/spa resort) in mind.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Can Bermuda be considered the Caribbean? Probably not, eh. If so, don't forget Mid Ocean Club!

How about Abaco Club, in Bahamas, by Tom Mackenzie and Martin Ebert? Anyone played this course? Photos suggest a very interesting site, along the sea. 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I worked in the Caribbean for 8 years as Director of Marketing for Windjammer Barefoot Cruises.  I've been on virtually every island from Freeport to the islands off Venezuela.  I can't speak for the Greater Antilles (i.e. the bigger islands like Hispaniola, PR, Cuba, Caymans, etc.) but on the Lesser Antilles, I would imagine water would be a major concern.  I know island like Antigua and most of the island in the Grenadines are pretty arid where the collect rain water for everyday use.  Some of the larger islands like Martinique, Guadalupe and Grenada have rain forests that would have enough water but the courses would probably have to be inland (I believe Martinique has a couple of courses where that's the case).  I played the 14-hole course (where you played 4 holes twice to make 18) on Montserrat before the volcano blew and the problem was (other than the shabby rental clubs) was that balls would disappear in the middle of the fairways down iguana holes!

I'm amazing that Trump could pull off a course in the Grenadines (just south of St. Vincent) with how scarce fresh water is there.  I'm sure someone here could address how they accomplished that...

I know that Kiawah Development Partners (the real estate company here on the island that also owns Doonbeg) is developing a golf/yachting/real estate facility in St. Kitts, just across the way from Nevis.  They're putting in a Fazio course which I'm sure the Nevis Four Season folks aren't happy about...

[Brian Cenci]

I recently got back from the south Caribbean and played Royal St. Kitts (on St. Kitts) and Sand Lane C.C. (on Barbados).

I thought St. Kitts Golf Club was a little better as there was a stretch of holes on the ocean that were very scenic.  Overall I think the courses suffer from the cost to make a profit against how many people actually get there to play golf.  I went on a cruise recently thru St. Thomas, Dominica, Barbados, Antigua, St. Kitts and & St. Marteen.  Most of these little islands are close to 3rd world countires (Dominica, parts of St. Kitts, parts of Antigua) and aren't really huge destination islands yet like the Bahamas or Domician Republic.

I mean Sandy Lane wanted something like $325 to play there regular Country Club course.  That's outrageous.

-Brian

[Chip Gaskins]

the central plains of the U.S. aren't (weren't) really huge destinations either.

i suppose it comes down to land ownership.  it the family in the central plains of the U.S. already own the land for a new course then that upfront land cost is zero where as if one of us went to the Bahamas we would have to fork over $5-10M in land acquisition cost to kick the project off...thus the $325 green fee.  then again, theres bandon

[Phil McDade]

Chip:

Ran highlights the virtures of Jamaica's Tryall, by the under-rated Ralph Plummer, here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/tryall1.html

[Eric Smith]

the central plains of the U.S. aren't (weren't) really huge destinations either.

i suppose it comes down to land ownership.  it the family in the central plains of the U.S. already own the land for a new course then that upfront land cost is zero where as if one of us went to the Bahamas we would have to fork over $5-10M in land acquisition cost to kick the project off...thus the $325 green fee.  then again, theres bandon

Here's a place with some potential:


map view


Google view


from the road



sea views

up top

This is a property down in the DR that my dad recently walked with the listing agent.  Almost 300 acres oceanfront, $20M asking price. If there was anyway to make that number work for golf, I'd like to hear it.  A GREAT HOTEL and a GREAT COURSE, maybe...

I gotta believe those world class caribbean courses are coming...so much money out there and some really talented architects, who imo, when given the opportunity, will deliver.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Slightly off topic but I think interesting all the same:

Whereas St. Andrews Golf Club (1888) was long thought to be the oldest Golf Club in the U.S., it was widely acknowledged that Royal Montreal was the oldest in North America, having been founded in 1873...

...In one of his recent books, Geoff Cornish disputes that saying that the oldest Golf Club in North America was Manchester Country Club in Jamaica, having been set up in 1865... Hardly a world class course however...

[Chip Gaskins]

how close is that DR piece of property to a (the) major airport in DR?

is the soil and weather such that you could pull off the Sand Hills construction cost model "$300 per green" as Sand Hill's website states?

another question is, can a golf course really be considered great if it has bermuda grass fairways and greens to keep maintenance cost cheap?  (i know, seminole, cabo del sol, teeth of the dog, etc....but there certainly not many non-sandy soil bermuda grass course in the Top 200 in the world)

[J Sadowsky]

Tryall, Teeth of the Dog, White Witch, Mid-Ocean, Sandy Lane (the original one), Royal Westmoreland, The Abaco Club - I call shenanigans.

[Dave_Miller]

with the tour in Puerto Rico this week it got me thinking.  the only real course talked about for its greatness in the Caribbean is Dye's Teeth of the Dog. 

is there something inherently wrong with the land, soil, topography, foreign ownership requirements, conservation laws, etc in the Caribbean that has precluded great course development?  is the soil too rocky?  i know some of the islands don't have nice sandy beaches.

i realize that many of the courses down there are resort courses and want just the opposite of what most on this board would want out of a golf course.  but if you can get Bandon, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Sand Hills, Cabot Links, etc to work, then it seems that you could certainly get it to work in the Caribbean with the ocean, year round warm weather, many direct flights from the east coast, etc

i know Doak has mention he has made several trips down there recently so there must someone out there that might have building a world class golf course (not pool/spa resort) in mind.

Chip
Mid-Ocean in Bermuda and White Witch in Jamaica (Robert Von Hagge) I found to be outstanding venues.  Very challenging and very enjoyable.
Fairways and Greens
Dave

[J Sadowsky]

with the tour in Puerto Rico this week it got me thinking.  the only real course talked about for its greatness in the Caribbean is Dye's Teeth of the Dog. 

is there something inherently wrong with the land, soil, topography, foreign ownership requirements, conservation laws, etc in the Caribbean that has precluded great course development?  is the soil too rocky?  i know some of the islands don't have nice sandy beaches.

i realize that many of the courses down there are resort courses and want just the opposite of what most on this board would want out of a golf course.  but if you can get Bandon, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Sand Hills, Cabot Links, etc to work, then it seems that you could certainly get it to work in the Caribbean with the ocean, year round warm weather, many direct flights from the east coast, etc

i know Doak has mention he has made several trips down there recently so there must someone out there that might have building a world class golf course (not pool/spa resort) in mind.

I think the Abaco Club really fits your description.

http://daleleatherman.com/GolfAbacoClub.htm

[Eric Smith]

how close is that DR piece of property to a (the) major airport in DR?

is the soil and weather such that you could pull off the Sand Hills construction cost model "$300 per green" as Sand Hill's website states?

It's 1 hr. 15 min. to Puerto Plata (POP). The new airport opening in Samana is about 1 hr.

As far as the soils go, if it's anything like the course just 10 minutes down the road, also on the cliffs/ocean, the Sand Hills greens you mention would be impossible.  At Playa Grande GC, the ground underneath the bermuda grass was a 'greasy' clay type material.  After playing an iron from the fairway you would sometimes end up with this greyish, old chewing gum looking crap on your clubface.  Quite a bit of exposed ancient coral stone too.  Again, that was another property ,but I'd guess you'd find similar materials.

[Ray Tennenbaum]

I mean it's not Fife or Westchester but what is?  there is certainly a lot of very good golf, and several great courses.

Jamaica has already been spoken of -- in the Dominican Republic, I don't know why no one has mentioned the unfortunately-named Dye Fore which in some ways surpasses ToTD, it's a remarkable site, hanging way above a river.

have heard conflicting accounts of The Green Monkey.

Puerto Rico has some solid courses -- RTJ2 is just now opening something in Bahia Beach.  a few years ago Ron Garl built a course not far from Fajardo, through something like 1000 acres, it was pretty amazing but apparently the partners started suing one another.

[Scott_Burroughs]

On the drawing boards are 2 Gil Hanse courses for Trump at Cap Cana in DR:

http://www.hansegolfdesign.com/news-links.htm

[Gary Slatter]

IMHO source of water was the original problem (Lucayan Country Club on Grand Bahama had lots of fresh water as well as Tryall in Jamaica) but now with salt tolerant grasses there will be tremendous growth of championship courses in the region.  As most are depending on resort golfers they will always be designed to play easier than they look (White Witch).  The Mexican coast of the Caribbean is also growing fast (Mayakabo hosted it's second PGA event).

Manchester Golf Club is a nine hole gem in Mandeville Jamaica (built in 1865 and opened in 1967) and still using the same 9 holes! They did change the order when they built a new clubhouse.   Caymanas GC  in Kingston is an excellent championship course in an unfortunate location, but worth playing.

DR, Bahamas and Barbados would be surprised to hear that they don't have world class golf.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Hi Gary. Hope all's well in Scotland.

How about Constant Springs, in Kingston, Jamaica, by Stanley Thompson? Have you played there?

Curious,

[Jonathan Cummings]

Teeth of the Dog is world class.

Ally - I think you are off by about a century.  Charleston CC has records of a 4-hole course in downtown Charleston that predates the Revolutionary War bu 10 years or so.  Today in the clubhouse is framed a letter for an order of 400 gutta p balls by the club manager in 1765.

J

[Willie_Dow]

Looking at Whitten's "Gentleman Joe Lee" there is a comment that it is maybe "the greatest course in the Bahamas, and perhaps even Joe Lee's best work."

It is Great Harbour Cay Country Club, Berry Islands, Bahamas.

I played there in the early 80's, and really loved the course.  Many hills with 78 degrees of elevation change.  Five holes were perched on cliffs over the ocean with existing sand dunes and ocean views from every hole.  According to Whitten, Golf Digest ranked it 21st among its 50 Best Foreign Courses in 1979.

It was originally laid out by Dick Wilson, I think - and then closed down after much hurricane damage a few years ago.  But I think it is getting rebuilt - does anyone know ?    

[Jason McNamara]

A couple days ago Shell's WWOG had Palmer-Brewer-Rodriguez from El Conquistador in PR, 1966 I think.  More elevation changes than I expected.  Also seemed to have a good number of half par holes.  Don't know what's happened to the course in the past 40 years, but it looked like an entertaining afternoon.  Anyone have any more recent info?

[Gary Slatter]

Hi Gary. Hope all's well in Scotland.

How about Constant Springs, in Kingston, Jamaica, by Stanley Thompson? Have you played there?

Curious,

Constant Spring is not bad, Canadian Head Pro.  Stanley Thompson also visited Manchester but did not work on it apparently.  All is well here, course is full today with snow predicted!

Great Harbour Cay was nice when it opened (Joe Lee design, Dick Wilson had just passed on). Nothing special though.  Lucayan CC, The Emerald at Princess and the original Paradise Island Course (where GARY PLAYER was Head Pro at one time!) were great courses in the Bahamas.  Lyford Cay has been made into a fine members course in Nassau.

[Mike Policano]

I played three rounds at Abaco a few weeks ago.  It is not your father's Caribbean course.  It is promoted as a links course and it has the appearance of a GB&I links course in a Caribbean setting complete with pot bunkers (no sod walls).

The holes are a lot of fun to play.  There is a lot of movement and randomness in the fairways.  There are centerline bunkers and cross bunkers that require your attention on many of the par 4's and 5's. The 5th hole is a very good short par 4 (drivable) with a dune blocking the view of the green from the tee.

The greens have a lot of contours and the greensites have the option of running the ball up for the most part.  There is even a nice biaritz green.

It didn't play very firm when I was there.  And the greens appeared to be Bermuda.  Those greens would be even more fun if they were tiff-eagle. 

[Willie_Dow]

Gary

I wonder what they (or who) did to Great Harbour Cay to make it "nothing special" ?  Is it still considered to have been "the greatest course in the Bahamas" ?

Joe Lee is considered as someone special around here in Florida, especially by an average golfer like myself.

[Wayne_Kozun]

...In one of his recent books, Geoff Cornish disputes that saying that the oldest Golf Club in North America was Manchester Country Club in Jamaica, having been set up in 1865... Hardly a world class course however...

Is the caribbean considered part of North America?  For World Club soccer qualifiying the region is know as CONCACAF which stands for Confederation of North, Central American and Caribbean Association Football - which would be one vote for the Caribbean not being in North America.

[Neal_Meagher]

Mike Policano,

I agree, the Abaco Club course is a real departure for that area and, playing it on the heels of a 2005 trip to Scotland, their goal of creating links-type strategies was clear.

You ask about the turf selection - it is SeaDwarf Seashore Paspalum and like all paspalum as I understand it, if it doesn't receive aggressive maintenance such as verti-cutting, etc.,  it can get clumpy.  Considering they had just had two consecutive hurricanes when I played it, the turf was, at that time, starting to achieve its firm and fast goals, but it sounds like they maybe aren't quite there now.