Old man architecture

[John Kavanaugh]

What is the best set up for an old man?  This new trend of short courses defended at the green worries me as putting gets tougher each year I get older.  What are examples of great old man courses?

[tlavin]

Pinehurst #1 is the apogee of old man golf.  It is simple, short, straightforward and beautiful.  It truly is a good walk unspoiled and even an old man can hit irons into virtually every green in regulation and putt without fear of rolling it into a bunker.  A real treat.

[RJ_Daley]

Great 'old man' courses are the ones that are not smash and gouge long.  Most old men I know, including myself want the interest and challenge at the end of the hole on a mid iron to short iron approach, with thrills on the green.  They just don't like having to play to long 4s in 3 or long iron to FW metal third shots to par 5s.  I don't know any old guys that are so worried about the yips so much as not getting home on a consistent basis in regulation.  Yips happen to old and young guys.  And one can have the yips even if the greens are moderately designed. 

Oh, and old guys like courses with green fees that are easy on their pension budgets...

[Phil Benedict]

Elevated greens are a real problem for old people because they have a hard time getting the ball up in the air.  We used to play a course called Troy Burne (Lehman) at family gatherings.  A bunch of elevated greens which gave my father (who was in his 80's) a devil of a time.

[Adam Clayman]

What are examples of great old man courses?

Does the old course count?

There's all kinds of old men. Some older than others. How old are you looking for?

I've seen eighty year olds hit the ball like a fifty year old and vice versa.

Surely, firm and fast conditions should be the olds man's equalizer.
 

[Bill_McBride]

Columbia Edgewater in Portland is a pretty good example.  6600 from the tips, no par 4s over 420, no killer par 5s.  Oh wait, #16 is 460 par 4 but it might as well be a par 5.  Greens are slick and small, lots of turning in the fairways and at least six par 4s under 360.  "Bomb and gouge" is not an option as a lot of the "rough" is 150' high Giant Sequoias!

[RJ_Daley]

Most all of the 'older men' I know that are advid golfers, walk when ever possible.  So, a design that promotes a decent walk, without extreem ankle turning hill climbs to highly raised teeing platforms or greens or other billy goat climbs thoughout the course are a welcome feature. 

The raised platform greens at Lawsonia can be a bit challenging in that regard on a few holes.  I would imagine that carries over to other such designs including Langford and Morreau's West Bend, or Raynor style big raised platforms throughout the country.  Yet many of those greens do have one angle of walk-on or walk-off where the hillside up to the green is not steep.   But, it can be tough on ankles when your ball is in the middle of a very steep green platform slope 15-20ft high, or on the sidehill of one of the gullwing bunkers.

Still, if the course is reasonably walkable, my experience with the golf culture in my neck of the woods is that older guys are far more likely to walk and enjoy than younger guys that think cart ball is like a Disney ride.

[Bill_McBride]

Still, if the course is reasonably walkable, my experience with the golf culture in my neck of the woods is that older guys are far more likely to walk and enjoy than younger guys that think cart ball is like a Disney ride.

Funny you would say that.  My brother and I (both in our 60s) and our sons (both in their 30s) were playing at the Wigwam Gold and Forrest Richardson came out to meet us for a drink after our round.  He said he knew it was our group coming down the 18th fairway because "the old guys were walking and carrying their bags and the young guys were in a cart!" 

[Wayne_Freedman]

As an old man in waiting....

Theoretically, shorter, narrower holes with more interesting greens, and designs with more   strategy. Walking....of paramount importance.

Played recently with some older guys who couldn't hit the ball more than 150 yards. OB was not an issue for them. Neither was reaching a green in regulation.  Approaches were their most interesting shots. So what's wrong with bunkers defending greens?

[David Stamm]

  Most old men I know, including myself want the interest and challenge at the end of the hole on a mid iron to short iron approach, with thrills on the green.  

Try telling that to the Soule Park Men's Club.

[Dean Paolucci]

Somerset Hills is great for the gracefully aging gentleman!  Not overly long, rewards course and club management, brilliant putting surfaces, and responds to an elevated short game.

[Tim_Weiman]

John,

If I had to pick one course to play when I'm 75 years old, the course that comes to mind is Kingston Heath.

[Gerry B]

I think that the chicago golf club is terrific for elderly players. Many of my hosts are on their 70's and due to bad hips etc. are very short off the tee. They manage to steer their shots around the course and seem to enjoy themselves. Very few forced carries off the tees - # 10 is probably the toughest and is only about 140 yds over the pond. They allow carts,  the greens to next tees are very close, and it is relatively flat.

Ditto for Indian Creek - yes they have many elevated greens but the collection areas are not too severe and it is very cart friendly.

[Sean_A]

The UK is full of interesting old man architecture.  Many of these courses get the miss by the touristas and would likely be dismissed anyhow.  I think fairly flat has to be a virtue for old folks.  With that in mind TOC may the poster boy of old man architecture.  It seems one can offer TOC as the response for many architecture questions and not be far off right! 

Aberdovey & Princes are a few other well known courses that old folks could enjoy. 

A few other lesser known course suitable for senior citizens are Huntercombe, Whittington Heath, Littlestone & Castletown.   

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

It really depends on whether you are accepting of or raging against the "dying of the light."  If the former, Leisure World will be increasingly appealing to you.  If not, you will die in your last attempt to carry the chasm at the 16th at Cypress Point.

[Bill_McBride]

It really depends on whether you are accepting of or raging against the "dying of the light."  If the former, Leisure World will be increasingly appealing to you.  If not, you will die in your last attempt to carry the chasm at the 16th at Cypress Point.

So far I'm 0 for 4. 

[Mark Pearce]

My father in law is 76 and plays off 13.  He still regularly walks 36 at Muirfield on Wednesdays, so I guess there's some good "Old man architecture" there.  What is it?  In no particular order I think these factors are important:  it's an easy walk; relatively flat terrain; no unreasonable heroic carries; it's a great challenge but anyone can play to their handicap if they play well.  There's no reason why a great golf coursecannot be a great old man's golf course.  Indeed I'd suggest that a course an old player but a decent one cannot enjoy cannot be a great course.

[Bob_Huntley]

It really depends on whether you are accepting of or raging against the "dying of the light."  If the former, Leisure World will be increasingly appealing to you.  If not, you will die in your last attempt to carry the chasm at the 16th at Cypress Point.

Rihc,

You whippersnapper you. Some of us do not attempt the shot anymore because we are just too short. Thank God for strokes to even us up with you big fellas.

Bob

[Lou_Duran]

My dear Farnsworth,

As I near that dying light, rage succumbs to acceptance, the 16th at Cypress is but a faint memory, and Leisure World beckons me.  Red tees anyone?

My my, Wild Bill.  Four times!  You sure have good friends and strong contacts.  But 0 for 4 might suggest a change in tactics.  In my presence on that hallowed spot a few years ago, Dr. Moriarty demonstrated an adaptation of the old adage "discretion (caution) is the better part of valor".  While he got razzed there and here for his smart play, only two of the four playing together that day managed bogey or better.   And recently I read that Mr. Hogan thought the risk to go at the green was not commesurate with the reward.  Who knows, maybe Dr. MacKenzie was right in his original conception of the hole.   

[Peter Wagner]

Hi John,

Well I'd say it's time to head for the Palm Springs area.  'Old man' courses are everywhere... there's probably 50 or 60 that would qualify and at least a dozen that would quicken your pulse.  PLUS you would have tons of other fellow old guys to hang out with and lose money to.  One I would recommend that might surprise you is Thunderbird CC.  The course itself is very average but it's very walkable and perfectly maintained.  Great club history, brand new clubhouse with a huge gym, and everyone there is an old guy.  I had a very enjoyable day there last year hanging out with old dudes and listening to 'back in the day' stories about Bob Hope and Dean Martin and Frank and Bing. 

Perfect weather for 6 months, a little hot for 3 months and you have to leave for the summer.  Restaurant reservations at 8 pm at any place in town are never a problem but good luck making a 5:30!

In Los Angeles I'd go with Lakeside CC or LACC South.  Both are easy to walk, great club histories, and great old guy memberships .  Traffic is bad but the smog has gotten better and the weather is pretty good.

The perfect old guy setup for me would be a LACC membership plus a small Palm Springs house on a socially busy course.  Wait a minute... that sounds pretty good right now!

Best,
Peter

[Mark Bourgeois]

John

This is such a great question; with the Western world getting older yet more active, architects and developers are going to have to do a lot more thinking about getting past simply accommodating older golfers and making things interesting.

My first thought was any course introduced prior to the Haskell ball, especially links (higher likelihood of gentler terrain than inland courses).

But maybe that's more like "must have" rather than "delighter," or necessary but insufficient.  Does it describe the ideal for accommodation but not the actual ideal?

So...maybe architects have to make the greens "interesting," but while some may like that (a lot!), others actually may hate it. (Not just you but apparently elderly golfers at North Palm Beach, for example.)

So probably it does go back to the links concept after all: create interest and challenge yet also a "rabbit line" (or whatever it was in that thread a while ago: lamb, play-with-a-putter, etc).

Real estate developers and marketers have so devalued the word "links" on inland courses you almost have to come up with a different word.  But still..."links" it is.

A course I've seen that shows the real possibilities here is the Links at Hope Island.  A modern, resort, real-estate, quasi-spongy turf, Florida-style, cart-golf, cart-GPS type deal -- but underneath the skin lie the bones of a links.

Look it up in Ran's course reviews.

Mark

PS The other thing old men need to learn to do is play from the proper tees.  They're more active in their older years, but that doesn't mean they're 20 anymore...

PPS Really, you should get over to Scotland and play the "toon" courses, especially the ones that aren't famous.  That's the model, in more ways than architecture.

PPPS Old man architecture = junior architecture?  Maybe this is karma for all those people who didn't do more to accommodate juniors.  Now they get to experience golf the same way...

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ron Whitten told me about a course called Birnam Wood, in Santa Barbara CA, designed by Robert Trent Jones Sr. during the 1960s. Whitten says the design is revolutionary because, some 40 years ago, RTJ tailored the course specifically to senior golfers. Reportedly, Birnam Wood is 6,000 yards from the back tees. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeff,

Isn't that the club that moved to High Dunsinane Hill?

Mark

[Jeff_Mingay]

No idea, Mark. Whitten mentioned it to me a few weeks ago. He didn't say if the course still exists as RTJ designed it though.