O.T. (sort of...) club walking policies

[A.G._Crockett]

I need any help that the treehouse can provide before next weekend with walking policies at well-known clubs.

As background, my club has recently purchased a second course, with about 4 miles separating the two.  Our course didn't allow walking before noon on Fri-Sat-Sun before the purchase of the second course; that club was even more restrictive of weekend walking, though the policy varied over the years.

In the past year and a half, my dues have gone up by a little over 60%, and I have this idea that I ought to be able to walk anytime that I wish.  Of course, management always trots out "pace of play", which we all know to be a smokescreen for "revenue stream".  (I walked the new course in 3 hours this weekend, playing alone on the front and with another guy on the back.  Our original course is a relatively easy walk, and I've walked it in 2.5 hrs. many times.)  I don't need help fighting the battle of pace of play, though.

I am meeting with management next Sat. (3/22) to discuss the matter, and would like to go in armed with facts about walking policies at some of America's great clubs, especially those with two characteristics:
     a. two courses
     b. not member-owned

Any factual information that you have about how the various publications value walking in the equation of their rankings would also be appreciated.

[Chris Cupit]

When carts are restricted to paths (common in Atlanta in the winter) walking is absolutely faster.  (There could be really extreme exceptions but I know which course you are talking about and walking is faster than staying on the paths.)

Bottom line is that it is a revenue issue--period.  And, the easier the course is to walk the greater the "problem" since many people may choose this option of wanting to walk.

In the summer though with carts off of the paths, walkers can be a little slower although easily within any reasonable pace of play guidelines.  Walkers may hold up a single or twosome in carts trying to play speed golf but that's about it.

The cost of many of America's "great clubs" is almost certainly much higher than your current rate although I understand it has gone up a lot this past year or so.  At clubs with IDs above $25,000 and monthly dues above $500 I think you see less of a drive to maximize revenue with mandatory cart policies.

In general at a club with IDs of $2,000-$8,000 and monthly dues $400 and under there is a lot of pressure to milk every available dollar.

I guarantee you this:  if the owners do allow more free walking you WILL have given them a perfect reason to increase dues on everyone to make up for the "lost revenue" that I assure you is part of the business plan. 

FWIW at my club I am thinking of "liberalizing" walking policies but honestly part of my calculus is that it's a pretty tough course to walk anyway and the good will I may generate will be worth more than the loss of revenue if more people walk.

My current policy is:

Before 1:00 PM walking or taking a push cart from the club costs $15
After 1:00 PM walking is free and push carts are $5

Possible new policy is:
Walking anytime free
Push cart anytime $7
The only caveat is that walkers must turn in 2 hours and play the back nine in 2 hrs 5 minutes MAX.  If they can't keep up, hop on!

I'm still not sure what I'll do and it might be a compromise between the two plans  above.


 

[Jason Connor]

Depending up your green-to-tee distance, the pace of play issue is bunk.

If "pace of play" is the rationale, I'm guessing that enforcing a stricter member driving distance vs. tees strategy would speed up play more.

Let's see a club watch members hit drives on the range then assign then a set of tees -- and forbid them from playing behind that set of tees.  It wouldn't fly with the membership -- but it would speed up play. I bet it would speed up play quite a bit. 

I play in a Saturday and Sunday morning group of about 10 foursomes every weekend.  We have about 1/4 walkers (players are randomly assigned each day, so it's a mix of riders and walkers in each foursome).  Given the mix, some groups may be all riders, some might have 2 or even 3 walkers.   I've never seen evidence that groups with more walkers are any more likely to drag behind.  None whatsoever.

Plus, as I've said here before, carts encourage inefficient play.  I just sold my house on a Pete Dye course (moved from IN to FL).  I work from home, so I'd look out to the 7th hole, a par 4 all day long.  So often I'd see two guys hit balls 20 yards apart.

They'd pull up to one ball,
one guy would sit in the cart,
the other would get out,
get a yardage,
go back and pick a club,
go through his preshot routine,
hit his ball,
clean his club,
put it back in his bag,
get in the cart,
then drive 20 yards to the other guy's ball where the other guy repeated the process. 

I usually hit my ball 10 seconds after my walking partners if they're away, oftentimes less.  But cart partners oftentimes take 2 minutes.  Tell your club's owner or manager to go out and watch for that, I guarantee he'll see a lot of it.  God forbid one guy walk 20 yards to his ball to speed up play.

I'll Google look for some studies that discuss this because I'd love to help you out.

When I was looking for clubs here in Florida, I knew I would only join a club that had a walking 100% of the time policy.   It's absurd more clubs don't.  Charge me if you need the revenue, but let me walk.

[Will MacEwen]

In my experience, clubs that relate mandatory carts to pace of play do not exhibit a burning committment to bettering pace of play.   They will rent out those carts, ring the till, and watch guys make the turn in 4:26.
 

[Dan Herrmann]

My club is "walk whenever you want."

Walkers never slow things down. And we have 3 or 4 long green --> tee walks due to wetland regulations.

[Jason Connor]

Dean Knuth, the man at the USGA who came up with the slope writing also did a pace of play analysis in the early 1990s.  His conclusion:

From Knuth's own website as quoted in an article by Joe Logan

http://www.popeofslope.com/paceofplay/who.html

"As culpable as golfers themselves are, says the USGA's Knuth, "slow play is more a management problem than a player problem."

Another major problem is rangers - timid rangers or, worse, nonexistent rangers. So that the course doesn't bottleneck, Knuth says, rangers need to be aggressive - polite but insistent that guilty golfers pick up the pace.

Cart policies also can hinder the speed of play. Believe it or not, says Knuth, a round of golf takes about the same time whether you're riding or walking. But when a course restricts carts to cart paths, it increases the time of a round by about 12 percent, or 30 minutes.

And well put by Will:

In my experience, clubs that relate mandatory carts to pace of play do not exhibit a burning committment to bettering pace of play.   They will rent out those carts, ring the till, and watch guys make the turn in 4:26.

As Knuth says http://www.popeofslope.com/paceofplay/index.html

"A golf course has to provide feedback to slow golfers. Rangers or "greeters" are the most inexpensive way to do that."

[Craig Sweet]

I believe A.G. said the issue was not pace of play....

AG...it sounds like an economic argument..plain and simple. I have no solutions for you, but I do know, I would not want to be a member at a club that had strict rules against walking...so....you know, if they lay the revenue rap on you, you might counter that the cost of gas is going up and when you walk you actually SAVE the club money.

[Jason Connor]

My apologies, I missed AG's pace of play not an issue comment.  I guess I'm just too sensitive to that!  But if the argument isn't pace of play, I can't imagine the owners rationale.  If it's monetary, let walkers pay a trail fee (which is becoming too common).

But back to the original request, it's also true that turf management is harder when dealing with carts. 

For instance walkers tend to enter and exit greens via disperse paths since they approach their ball from wherever they struck their previous shot.  This may not be true in the rare instance where there is only a very narrow path due to bunkers or hazards that essentially requires all golfers to approach on the same narrow path.

On the other hand, riders will more often tend to enter/exit greens from the same place over and over since there is usually one convenient spot to park their carts.  This requires more turf management. Tom Doak covers this briefly on page 108 of The Anatomy of a Golf Course

[Tommy Williamsen]

A.G. I belong to three clubs.  Two have no walking restrictions ever. One is member owned and the other is owned by an individual.  The other mandates that you take a caddy from April through October before 2PM.
I know very few private clubs that do not allow walking anytime. 

[A.G._Crockett]

When carts are restricted to paths (common in Atlanta in the winter) walking is absolutely faster.  (There could be really extreme exceptions but I know which course you are talking about and walking is faster than staying on the paths.)

Bottom line is that it is a revenue issue--period.  And, the easier the course is to walk the greater the "problem" since many people may choose this option of wanting to walk.

In the summer though with carts off of the paths, walkers can be a little slower although easily within any reasonable pace of play guidelines.  Walkers may hold up a single or twosome in carts trying to play speed golf but that's about it.

The cost of many of America's "great clubs" is almost certainly much higher than your current rate although I understand it has gone up a lot this past year or so.  At clubs with IDs above $25,000 and monthly dues above $500 I think you see less of a drive to maximize revenue with mandatory cart policies.

In general at a club with IDs of $2,000-$8,000 and monthly dues $400 and under there is a lot of pressure to milk every available dollar.

I guarantee you this:  if the owners do allow more free walking you WILL have given them a perfect reason to increase dues on everyone to make up for the "lost revenue" that I assure you is part of the business plan. 

FWIW at my club I am thinking of "liberalizing" walking policies but honestly part of my calculus is that it's a pretty tough course to walk anyway and the good will I may generate will be worth more than the loss of revenue if more people walk.

My current policy is:

Before 1:00 PM walking or taking a push cart from the club costs $15
After 1:00 PM walking is free and push carts are $5

Possible new policy is:
Walking anytime free
Push cart anytime $7
The only caveat is that walkers must turn in 2 hours and play the back nine in 2 hrs 5 minutes MAX.  If they can't keep up, hop on!

I'm still not sure what I'll do and it might be a compromise between the two plans  above.

 

Chris,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  Upon further reflection, I think I'll softpedal this whole thing and hope for the best.  Giving further reason to raise dues is the last thing that I want, though if I was a betting man, I would bet that we would see another $50 added at the beginning of '09 anyway.

[Chris Cupit]

Tommy,

In the market A.G. is asking about mandatory carts are prevalent among private clubs--most restrict "anytime "free" walking".

A.G.

Maybe propose a comprimise that allows for unrestricted "free" (actually it's not free as you pay dues so let's say "no additional charge") walking on the easier walking West course and some kind of trail fee for the more difficult to walk East.

I know this is opposite of my theory I suggested for my course of allowing more "free" walking on the more difficult to walk courses but it may seem like a very resonable approach.  It will look more like a member who understands the financial impact of walking but alo appeals to the owners not to change what so many liked about the "old" system that provided good affordable golf.

Good luck.  (And enjoy PGC)

[Scott_Burroughs]

A.G.,

While this isn't an answer to your original question, it's hopefully a possible solution, given that mandatory carts/pace of play is almost always a smokescreen for more $.  Before Wake Forest GC closed at the end of last year, in the last couple of years it was open, they allowed members to walk on weekend mornings (before 11) provided we still paid the cart fee. 

In the process of contemplating joining non-yet-open Olde Liberty, I talked with the GM and the HP about WFGC's walking policy, and lo and behold, they ended updopting the same policy, pay for carts, but can still walk on weekend mornings.  OL is not as walker-friendly as WFGC was, so even fewer will walk (on a percentage basis) than at WFGC, so I think they knew it was to appease only a few, but make all 'happy'.

[Steve Lang]

  A.G.,

At The Woodlands CC on north side of Houston, we have three courses, walking anytime.  There are a good number who still carry, many more that push speed carts, and i suspect about 50+% over-all take carts.  Sometimes when its wet, they restrict all carts to path, and if its that wet, we just don't play..

The club is pushing a life-style expansion plan, promoting fitness faciliites, etc.. I suspect it will be very hard to ever mandate carts.  However, at the two associated Canongate courses, our old resort courses, which we have access to, they don't allow push carts..  but you can carry/walk.  It is ridiculous and we play them very rarely now, as we use push carts.. and I have carried when alone a few times..

In heat of summer here, there's still a good group of die-hard walkers.. you hydrate, hydrate some more and keep drinking every three holes.  having a cart for the last 9 is often a good choice..

[Garland Bayley]

I know I don't have the stats you are looking for, but those #*&^%@#$ cart ballers perhaps wouldn't be so #R@^T* slow if carts were made to have the clubs right in front of their faces like they are on SunMountain speed carts for walkers instead of hidden way out in the outback. I swear I could hit dozens of shots while waiting for cartballers to get out, walk to the back of the cart, procure a club, walk forward to the ball, hit the shot, walk back behind the card, put the club away, and finally go back and climb in the cart.They should be able to stop the cart, get out with club in hand, hit the shot, get back with club in hand, and be on their way.

Thank you for the opportunity to vent on the slow play of cartballers.

[A.G._Crockett]

As an update:

I sent the club GM a long, long email today that detailed the fallacies of the pace of play stuff. 

Just a bit ago I got an email back from him that said that the walking policy going forward would be unlimited walking Mon-Fri (that's a gain of Fri. a.m., which had been restricted at both courses until afternoon).  On Sat. and Sun., walking will be allowed after 1 p.m., and you may walk in the mornings BUT you must pay $17, the current cart rental rate. 

In other words, a tacit admission that pace of play was never the issue.  I'll take that as at least a minor victory for truth, justice and the American way.  I rarely play on weekend mornings anyway, and I do pick up Friday a.m., and I know that the cart fee for walking is becoming something of an industry standard at for-profit courses both public and private.  I'll take the good with the bad.

[Doug Siebert]

I'd find another course if one of the courses I frequent charged me the cart fee for walking!  Be honest and just raise the greens fees and advertise "free carts" and I could at least give them credit for honesty.  Courses that require a cart fee for walkers are outright lying about their prices if they advertise just the greens fees and don't mention the mandatory cart fee.  Ditto for a mandatory caddy fee.  Just think how much less complaint there would be about Pebble Beach's greens fees if they lowered them to $100 and just charged a mandatory $500 cart/caddy fee

Seriously, how many here would frequent a restaurant that charged you for an appetizer and dessert even if you were on an diet and never ordered either?

[Peter Wagner]

Hi A.G.,

I'm happy to hear that your course is relaxing their walking policy but I want to address one of your other points.

Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs.

I've done the math and it just doesn't pencil.  Club GM's need to look at ALL costs associated with carts.  Electricity, cart purchase costs ($5k-ish), cart maint, liability, and the big one - addition wear on the course.  On top of that you have to pay to clean them and store them.  Think of the other revenue generating uses for your redecorated cart barn!

I would love to retire 1/2 the fleet at my home course because it costs us money.  We're getting bids now on trading in our 3 year old fleet for new and the price tag is about $300k.  Ouch.

Carts do not produce profit.  They drain money from the club while compacting the soil and wearing out the grass.

Best,
Peter

[Scott_Burroughs]

Peter,

I've heard you're point in the past, but I bet that a high percentage of GM's/owners, etc. think otherwise and/or flat out refuse to believe it.  Many don't think of/don't count the overhead costs involved as part of the cost of having a cart fleet.   And don't a lot of pros still get a piece of every cart rental fee?  They have no incentive to encourage walking.

[Bill_McBride]

Hi A.G.,

I'm happy to hear that your course is relaxing their walking policy but I want to address one of your other points.

Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs.

I've done the math and it just doesn't pencil.  Club GM's need to look at ALL costs associated with carts.  Electricity, cart purchase costs ($5k-ish), cart maint, liability, and the big one - addition wear on the course.  On top of that you have to pay to clean them and store them.  Think of the other revenue generating uses for your redecorated cart barn!

I would love to retire 1/2 the fleet at my home course because it costs us money.  We're getting bids now on trading in our 3 year old fleet for new and the price tag is about $300k.  Ouch.

Carts do not produce profit.  They drain money from the club while compacting the soil and wearing out the grass.

Peter, I wish other clubs were more knowledgeable about the TRUE costs of operating a fleet of carts.  You didn't mention the cost of maintaining, edging, etc of the cart paths which must be included.  There's also the cost of rental of additional carts for a member-guest or other major event when it's just sort of traditional that a cart is part of the deal.

Both my clubs allow unlimited walking.  Both are member owned clubs operated by a board of directors, and somebody has done the math.  But my club in Pensacola continues to believe that carts are a profit center and our director of golf isn't very supportive of walkers.  At least there's no hassle over cart only hours and days.

[Lou_Duran]

Peter W,

With all due respect, I think your assertion ("Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs.") is erroneous.  A large cart fleet may not make a lot of sense at high-end, low-use clubs except as an amenity, but out of 16,000 or so courses in this country, these represent but a tiny minority.  To believe as you do, you must also believe that owners and management companies do not know relatively simple economics, finance, or accounting.

My own analysis when considering investments in the business showed that carts add a significant amount to the bottom line.  With a profit margin in the 60% to 70% range, for some daily-fee and private non-equity clubs in competitive markets, they can often account for a substantial portion of the profits.

In terms of revenues, in some markets like Texas, if people can't ride, they don't play.  It is part of the culture and a necessity for many people, particularly in the very hot summer months.

You can factor in the cost of cart paths (which also help to reduce the wear and tear of maintenance and construction equipment as it gets around the course), the incremental turf maintenance costs (an allocation at best, and probably not a great amount at most courses), insurance, etc. and an efficiently operated fleet will still throw off 40% to 50% to the club's profits.  Other than some soft goods, there probably isn't a better contributor on the course.

BTW, I am a committed walker who has fought American Golf on this very issue (mandatory cart use during peak season times).  I went as far as buying stock in the REIT which owned our course and considered taking legal action.  Not only did I lose a substantial portion of my investment, but all my efforts were for naught.

As walkers, we have for the most part gotten acknowledgement from the owners and management companies that mandatory riding is purely about profits and not speed of play concerns.  Suggesting that a well run fleet is not profitable for the industry is, in my opinion, counter-productive to our cause.  I hope Scott Busch sees this thread as I am sure he can provide very accurate data showing the real economics.

[Chris Cupit]

Peter, Scott & Bill,

Do any of you own a club and operate it as a business?  I guess owners and GMs are just morons and we should thank our lucky stars that omnipotent boards can do math

"Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs". 

OK??  What evidence do you have for that statement?  Any?

"Don't pros still get a piece of every cart rental fee?  They have no incentive to encourage walking." 

What decade is this notion from???  Maybe, MAYBE years ago a few pros had a percentage of the range, carts, club repair, lessons, etc.....but that comment today shows how out of touch the average golfer is with the industry.


Here are some real quick numbers about some real cart rental income and expenses. 

18 hole private course in Atlanta with 72 carts.

Cart income for 2007
(37,000 PAID rounds)                                 $569,000

Cart lease  (72 carts)
($68 per cart per month)                                                  $58,752
Not a lot of people buy their carts

20,000 square foot clubhouse
average monthly electric bill ($5,000)
AND let's assume 100% of that
goes to carts                                                                    $60,000

Cart path construction
(asphalt)  $350,000 that
say lasts 7 years or so. 
I get to depreciate that capital
expense (and operators LOVE
non-cash expenses)                                                        $50,000
Let's assume 50k a year for repairs
and path maintnence--VERY HIGH BTW

Cart staff for the year  (High school kids at
$8 an hour)                                                                      $75,000

Total                                                         $325,248
 
Carts make money for a facility. 

Remember also that many courses are simply unwalkable for a lot of people.  What is the average cost of losing one full member because they can't ride?

Average person stays a member 7 years so at a club with a $7500 initiation fee and monthly dues of $300 and assuming no increases and ZERO usage it xomes to $32,700.00

I know walking is sacrosanct on this site and carts are evil but as someone who had a handicapped father and who sees genuine need for carts among a huge percentage of his members, should we really vilify facilities that make the game MORE ACCESSIBLE to a large group of people??

I would argue that courses that allow walking and particularly those that require caddies actually increase the cost of golf per person and certainly curtail the number of people who even have the chance to play the game.

I'd love to hit the lottery and be able to build a walking only course without cart paths.  Yes, they look hideous, detract from how golf was meant to be played and cart revenue certainly has costs that many people don't factor in but, carts are a revenue source for most clubs--not the other way around.

Peter--The surest loser for most clubs is to get rid of carts and "re-decorate the cart barn for a bigger dining room"!!  Also, beverage carts are not nearly as profitable (when at all) as people think.





 

[Cabell Ackerly]

Chris and Lou,
I agree with both of you wholeheartedly.

The real question should be: how much of that revenue would you lose if carts were not mandatory? In other words - how many people would actually choose to walk for free over riding for $20?

I'm sure the answer would vary depending on the location and demographics of the course; but I would think, in a lot of cases, the loss of cart income would be minimal if golfers were allowed to choose.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris and Lou,
I agree with both of you wholeheartedly.

The real question should be: how much of that revenue would you lose if carts were not mandatory? In other words - how many people would actually choose to walk for free over riding for $20?

I'm sure the answer would vary depending on the location and demographics of the course; but I would think, in a lot of cases, the loss of cart income would be minimal if golfers were allowed to choose.

I agree.  Obviously it varies by club but in many cases the increase in good will by allowing unrestricted or nearly unrestricted walking would far outweigh any lost revenue.

 

[Jason Connor]

The real question should be: how much of that revenue would you lose if carts were not mandatory? In other words - how many people would actually choose to walk for free over riding for $20?

This is the key.

I believe carts make money for a club.

The question is whether mandatory cart policies make money.

Since the vast majority of golfers ride these days, the policy only matters based upon the handful of us walkers.

I'm a new member of one of the few Orlando clubs that allow weekend morning golf.  And still I'd estimate <20% of us walk -- and I'm sure that will only decrease in the summer as temperatures go up.

So the relevant math becomes:

If the club had a mandatory cart policy some of the walkers would just ride and the club would make more money from them.

If the club had a mandatory cart policy some guys like me would never have joined and the club would lose money.  They would lose my yearly fee, lose my Gatorades & food, lose my proshop dollars (and I buy my equipment from the golf shop at my club).

I (very roughly) estimate my club would have to rent 167 carts in a year to compensate for the revenue they'd lose if I left.  167 cart fees they'd have to recoup from other would-be walkers who'd succumb to the mandatory cart fee.

So for each walking member who quit due to the mandatory cart fee, they'd have to have a walker who plays 3 times a week willing to ride, or 2 formerly walking members who played once and twice a week respectively.

(very rough calcs that were based on revenues, not profits, since I have no idea how much profit clubs make on the various dollars I spend there)

[Garland Bayley]

Peter, Scott & Bill,

Do any of you own a club and operate it as a business?  I guess owners and GMs are just morons and we should thank our lucky stars that omnipotent boards can do math

"Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs". 

OK??  What evidence do you have for that statement?  Any?

"Don't pros still get a piece of every cart rental fee?  They have no incentive to encourage walking." 

What decade is this notion from???  Maybe, MAYBE years ago a few pros had a percentage of the range, carts, club repair, lessons, etc.....but that comment today shows how out of touch the average golfer is with the industry.


Here are some real quick numbers about some real cart rental income and expenses. 

18 hole private course in Atlanta with 72 carts.

Cart income for 2007
(37,000 PAID rounds)                                 $569,000

Cart lease  (72 carts)
($68 per cart per month)                                                  $58,752
Not a lot of people buy their carts

20,000 square foot clubhouse
average monthly electric bill ($5,000)
AND let's assume 100% of that
goes to carts                                                                    $60,000

Cart path construction
(asphalt)  $350,000 that
say lasts 7 years or so. 
I get to depreciate that capital
expense (and operators LOVE
non-cash expenses)                                                        $50,000
Let's assume 50k a year for repairs
and path maintnence--VERY HIGH BTW

Cart staff for the year  (High school kids at
$8 an hour)                                                                      $75,000

Total                                                         $325,248
 
Carts make money for a facility. 

Remember also that many courses are simply unwalkable for a lot of people.  What is the average cost of losing one full member because they can't ride?

Average person stays a member 7 years so at a club with a $7500 initiation fee and monthly dues of $300 and assuming no increases and ZERO usage it xomes to $32,700.00

I know walking is sacrosanct on this site and carts are evil but as someone who had a handicapped father and who sees genuine need for carts among a huge percentage of his members, should we really vilify facilities that make the game MORE ACCESSIBLE to a large group of people??

I would argue that courses that allow walking and particularly those that require caddies actually increase the cost of golf per person and certainly curtail the number of people who even have the chance to play the game.

I'd love to hit the lottery and be able to build a walking only course without cart paths.  Yes, they look hideous, detract from how golf was meant to be played and cart revenue certainly has costs that many people don't factor in but, carts are a revenue source for most clubs--not the other way around.

Peter--The surest loser for most clubs is to get rid of carts and "re-decorate the cart barn for a bigger dining room"!!  Also, beverage carts are not nearly as profitable (when at all) as people think.

I notice not cost of course maintenance due to cart damage in your figures. When I signed up for the USGA walking program, their literature said that cost of course maintenance alone made carts unprofitable. For examle, those concrete paths are not out there for my walking pleasure.