[John Shimp]

Mike Sweeney,
Your comments about Doak not building anything less than a 6 overlook Charlotte Golf Links.  I think Tom himself has referred to it as a 3 or 4.  No way its better than a 4. 

Dye's best is spectacular as is Tom Doak's.  Your comments make it sound like Doak is way better than Dye.  I know its just your opinion but Dye is really good at his best.

[J Sadowsky]

I think Dye has built some courses that are fun for high handicappers - I really enjoyed Avalon Lakes in Ohio, although its hardly a top 100 type course.  I think Dye has been more prolific, and a little more orthadox, so it gives him unique advantages and disadvantages.

Even to a mid-to-high handicapper, a Dye course can be generally fun (though my dad hates them).  The thing about Dye, is that Dye courses usually play like a single strategy, where execution generally pays off, whereas a Doak course generally has more options, but sometimes it feels like proper execution isn't as big of an advantage.  I think they each have provided a great contribution to GCA, and should be looked at seperately.  Nobody plays Pei v Wright, or Da Vinci v Picasso.  Not sure you can compare the two here, with such vastly different styles and contributions.

Also, they are of such different timelines: Dye brought us out of the dark ages, whereas Doak (along with C&C) brought back the minimalist age.

[Tim Nugent]

Without PD, there would be no TD (at least not in the current form).  Therefore, IMHO, the main advantage TD has over PD is, for TD, there already was a PD.  PD is a creation of his own making.  Perhaps what TD learned most from PD was how to be a marverick and go against the grain of what was in vogue at the time. Envelope pushing 101.  And how to sell it.  After all, PD is the PT Barnum of GC Arch's.

I've played many PD courses but only one TD, so I dare not compare.  What I will say about PD is I find he does a great job with giving the golfer more information than is needed to solve the equation (hole).  It's up to the player to ascertain what's relivent and what's just extroanious BS.  He also is a master at the optical illusion.  He can make an impossible carry appear to be the intended route and the intened route to look like you're going in the wrong direction. 

A suggestion  of nearby courses for those who need to do a little more Dye.  Try Black Wolf Run ( I think TD possibly might have even done a little something there  -  Meadow nine?).  Next day Whistling Straights.  Or for some earlier work, Harbortown and Long Cove.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

The only work I did at Blackwolf Run was to take the picture for the scorecard.  My tenure with Mr. Dye was spent at Long Cove, Plum Creek, the Stadium course at PGA West (planning work), and Riverdale Dunes in Colorado.  Oh, and I worked on one of the many iterations of the Pete Dye Golf Club for a couple of weeks.

I certainly did learn from Pete that being a maverick wasn't all bad.  I had only been working at Long Cove a couple of weeks when he told me the story of Harbour Town and how he'd decided to go against the grain and make it very different than Mr. Jones' Palmetto Dunes.  But, I also knew when I left that Mr. Dye had two sons and anyone who wanted his style of course would hire them before me ... so I decided to do something different.

[Tim Nugent]

Tom, loved Long Cove.  Pete told me once that originally the 18th at Harbortown was just a standard width fairway on the right.  He said they built a dam along the left side of it and pumped the marsh muck over it to use as fill and over the weekend the earthen dam broke and a bunch of the muck oozed back toward the C. Sound (don't ask me to spell it) and that's how the bulge came to be.  Is this Pete being Pete? 
PS. I remembered something re:BWR from a talk you gave in Milwaukee back in the early 90's, just couldn't remeber the details.

[Andy Troeger]

Mike Sweeney,
Your comments about Doak not building anything less than a 6 overlook Charlotte Golf Links.  I think Tom himself has referred to it as a 3 or 4.  No way its better than a 4. 

Charlotte Golf Links came to mind for me as well, without referring to the actual scale I'd guess its about a 3 IMO. In any case, both Doak and Dye have pretty good batting averages and their best courses seem to stack up with any of their contemporaries. I'm much more familiar with Dye having played 7-8 of his best work and they all fare very well on my list and I hope someday to see the rest of them and get a better sampling of Doak courses too.

[George_Bahto]

Dye: "He can make an impossible carry appear to be the intended route and the intened route to look like you're going in the wrong direction."

Tim - what a great observation - thank you

[Walt_Cutshall]

Well if I could only play Dye or Doak courses for the rest of my days, I'd be a happy guy.

Of Doak's work, I have only played Pacific Dunes. It is, of course, outstanding--one of the best courses ever.

I have played a lot of Dye's courses, and they just click with me. Dye is always presenting me with 10 different options for a shot, and it is up to me to figure out the best way for me to play the shot given my game and the conditions that day. It is thinking man's golf. For me, there is no better challenge than that.

If only all the game's architects were so talented as the D boys.

[Mike Sweeney]

I am sorry, but I am just not feeling it. Here are pics of Pete Dye's first course in New York opening this summer. I played the old Pound Ridge 9 holer and this property just did not need this much earthmoving:


http://www.poundridgegolf.com

[John Kavanaugh]

Sweens,

Good for you..you and your New York media friends know more about golf than ole stupid Indiana Pete Dye.  Where did Dye go to school..Cornell?  Just keep flying buddy.

[Peter Pallotta]

It'd be interesting to know what this one mentor-student relationship suggests about the nature of those relationships in general, past and present e.g. about what CAN be taught and what can't be in golf course architecture.  The relationship between Pete Dye and Tom Doak seems like an excellent one: a mentor who was able to teach while leaving his student's freedom and confidence intact, and a student who much respected his mentor but was still not afraid to go off in a different direction. I don't know if this is unique in the tradition/history of golf course architecture, or how some of the other student-mentor relationships might/might've compared and contrasted.  (And, do better golf courses come through better mentors?) I'm guessing that more than a few people around here DO know, so any thoughts would be appreciated....

Peter       

[Mike Sweeney]

Sweens,

Good for you..you and your New York media friends know more about golf than ole stupid Indiana Pete Dye.  Where did Dye go to school..Cornell?  Just keep flying buddy.

Oh John.  I am just a consumer, and consumers get to make choices.

My media friends consist of the Silda Spitzer-like moms on The Rebecca Reader, our school newspaper. I am the Sports Columnist but nobody seems to care about golf architecture!

It appears that the Midwesterners know how to manipulate the New York media better than me. From Pete Dye's Wall Street Journal article:

_______________________________________
Why are his courses so hard? "You might as well ask why people who are members of perfectly good golf clubs fly to Scotland and Ireland to play golf in the rain for a week and never come close to breaking 90," he said. Most of his designs are for destination resorts that people will only play a handful of times a year—and difficulty seems to be what they are after.

"I don't understand golfers one lick," he said. "Personally, if I couldn't break 90 on a course, I'd probably never want to play it again."
_________________________________________

Sounds to me like Pete Dye, from his own words, is building courses for the "Hit and Run" market which you so disdain. With all your memberships and all those great Pete Dye courses out there, how come no Pete Dye membership in the Kavanaugh resume?  How many trips have you made to Kohler versus Bandon?

I will admit that my Raynor love is a complete double standard:

[John Kavanaugh]

I would love to be a member of Crooked Stick if it wasn't on the wrong side of Indianapolis for me.  I am thrilled at the prospect of playing the new Dye course at French Lick as it will be resort/public and less than an hour from my house.  Many of our mutual friends will be putting themselves out to see that one.

[Mike Sweeney]

I would love to be a member of Crooked Stick if it wasn't on the wrong side of Indianapolis for me. 

I think you took that from the "Hit and Run Playbook"!! Welcome back as leader of the GCA Double Standard Club. 

Crooked Stick was a long time ago. Do you think Doak will get better or worse over the next 10 years? This of course assumes courses are still being built!

[John Kavanaugh]

Crooked Stick was a long time ago. Do you think Doak will get better or worse over the next 10 years? This of course assumes courses are still being built!

How will we ever know if he keeps building by committee.  In 10 years I will be pushing 60 so I might enjoy courses built for the worm burning crowd.  I just hope Doak gets off this lumpy green kick and builds something an old man can putt.

[Kirk Gill]

My tenure with Mr. Dye was spent at Long Cove, Plum Creek, the Stadium course at PGA West (planning work), and Riverdale Dunes in Colorado.

We've talked some on this board about Riverdale Dunes, but Plum Creek never seems to come up (I'm assuming that Mr. Doak is talking about the Plum Creek course in Colorado, not the one near Indianapolis). This was one of the first "non-muni" courses I ever had a chance to play. Everyone had been telling me how hard it was, but it was most enjoyable for this high handicapper, although I'm sure that the housing has surrounded it more now than it had back in those days. As a Dye course with, apparently, some Doak input, I'd be interested in the impressions of those who have played it..........

And regarding the Pound Ridge course - those photos do look a bit over the top, visually, but how well does it play?

[Tom_Doak]

Kirk:

I had no input at Plum Creek at all ... I was just on the construction crew, trying to get the last few holes planted after returning from the UK that summer.

The only courses where I had ANY input on the design for Mr. Dye were the Stadium course at PGA West (where I contributed a couple of ideas in the course of the planning work) and Riverdale Dunes (where I shaped greens and bunkers and ran the "design" end of the job.

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