[Matthew Hunt]

"Tom Doak’s main advantage over Pete Dye is Aesthetics”

Discuss...

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Do you mean eye candy    It is all in the eye of the beholder.
Mark

[Adam Clayman]

I'm not sure aesthetics covers all of it.
 Certainly making the constructed features look like they fit into the natural surrounds is one. If that's what you meant by aesthetics, then yes.
 However, I believe it's more than that. Pete seems to rely heavily on a pure aerial assualt approach, where Tom seems to provide a medium where attacking the hole is multi-dimensional. Plus, their greens could not be more different.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Matthew,

First of all, preference with regard to aesthetics is very, very subjective. While one guy loves the look of, say, Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes, another prefers Harbour Town. I think all three courses look great; and, more important, fit into their respective settings very well.

Maybe I'm wrong, but your "quote" seems to infer there's something inferior about the "Pete Dye aesthetic". I certainly can't agree with this.

[Mike Sweeney]

I admit to not playing any of Pete Dye's great clubs, but in comparison to Tom, the percentages are not even close. Has Tom built anything less than a Doak 6?

I try not to be part of the Tom Doak Fan Club here but there is a reason that Disney buried the Pete Dye course to build a Four Seasons. Disney Eagle Pines by Dye was the poster child of a Doak 4.

I just drove by the course that Pete and Perry and building at Pound Ridge GC, and I will simply say that I may not even play it once based on what I have seen in pics here and in person.

In the 10 round test, 8 Doakies vs 2 Dyes if I get to pick 10 courses.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Nothing at all against Tom, but you might want to play a few more of Pete's best (pick 20 or so) and then make that call

[Bart Bradley]

Wow...what a topic....when did you last beat your wife?   

Can you really generalize about these designers...they both have tackled a variety of terrains and produced significantly different styles of courses even among their own body of work.  Wouldn't a comparison of specific courses be more doable.

Bart

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt - I don't see a versus here.  They've both done amazing work that will certainly stand the test of time.

[Wade Whitehead]

I'm astounded at the work of both gentlemen.  In threads and conversations like this one, I believe both end up pigeon-holed in a general, inaccurate, and unfair sense.

Dye is more than Sawgrass.  See Lost Canyons, Harbor Town, and Pete Dye Golf Club for a quick peek at his diverse abilities.

Mr. Doak is quietly revolutionizing an architecture field that, in my opinion, generally stagnated for a couple of decades.  I'm not sure we're yet able to realize what that contribution means.

WW

[JohnH]

How about a Mercedes v Rolls Royce?

[Mark Smolens]

How about a Mercedes v Rolls Royce?

Or Elle McPherson vs. Heidi Klum?  Each fantastic in their own right, and given the opportunity, I'd play either one without reservation. . .

[Jed Peters]

Casa de Campo may be considered Pete Dye's masterpiece (and one he is/was constantly tinkering with) and I consider it one of the finest courses I've ever played.

That being said, i've only played Doak's Pacific Dunes.

in comparison, I personally think that Dye's ocean holes are better than Doak's, but i also think that he had a better landscape to deal with (picture crystal clear water splashing up onto a green raised 4' above the water surrounding it)--although undoubtedly the soil at PD is better...

All that being said, they are both magical courses and, I think, designers.

I think that Doak's asthetics are more natural, blending with the settings more, but Dye's are gorgeous in and of themselves.

From what I've seen, on both of their "masterpieces", Dye did more with the land he was given (it was pretty crappy pre-golf course)....but dye did better on the routing (PD is genius) and the inland holes are better.

10 rounds, I'd play 7 at Teeth of the Dog, and 3 at PD...but then again, I like warm weather!

[Jon McNey]

Both great innovators.  Dye's greens, however, have always seemed smaller, fewer pin placements, less bold contours.  Doak's greens more in the Scottish/links genre--bigger, more pin positions, more like the Maxwell Rolls.

[Jim Wagner]

Since I am a newbie on this site, I need to ask what is a Doak 6 or 4 is.  Can anyone enlighten me?

[John Kavanaugh]

Pete Dye has built at least 14 courses in Indiana alone...each is head and shoulders above Doak's single effort of Quail Crossing.   http://www.visitindianagolf.com/IndianasOwn.php

[Mike Sweeney]

Jim,

Here is a thread on Doak Scale 6, maybe somebody has the actual list to post.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32122.0.html

Pete Dye has built at least 14 courses in Indiana alone...each is head and shoulders above Doak's single effort of Quail Crossing.   http://www.visitindianagolf.com/IndianasOwn.php

John,

Thanks for posting this. Next time I am flying over Indiana to Bandon or Kings Putter in California, this will come in handy!! 

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
Nothing at all against Tom, but you might want to play a few more of Pete's best (pick 20 or so) and then make that call

Mark,

I am not saying that Dye does not have anything worth playing, but the percentage of hits is lower than Doak and certainly it has been some time since Dye has had a true hit. From a business perspective today, assuming fees are roughly equal, there is no way I hire Pete Dye today over Tom Doak.

If I was a tour pro I am sure I would think differently, but I sit comfortably in the category of 99.99% who are not.

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's see how Doak does when he gets tired of building the exact same green over and over.  You have to admire how Dye has kept it interesting so many years.  From what I have seen in pictures and touring the unfinished course I would put the new Dye course at French Lick right up with Pacific Dunes when it comes to value of ball hitting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Both great innovators. 

John,

I think that's a great observation.

I also believe that you have to look at Dye's work in the context of what was happening in the world of GCA when he arrived on the scene and how his design concepts differed from the accepted norms.[/color]

Dye's greens, however, have always seemed smaller, fewer pin placements, less bold contours.  Doak's greens more in the Scottish/links genre--bigger, more pin positions, more like the Maxwell Rolls.

[Adam Clayman]

I'll tell you one major difference, Pete's humor is often exhibited. Tom's... not so much.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I'd say one of Doak's key advantages over many of his peers is that he was able to apprentice with Mr. Dye and Alice Dye. 

The only advantage he has over Mr. Dye at this moment is his relative youth.

[John Kirk]

Tom has mentioned before that Pete Dye does great work with less than ideal sites.  The TPC at Sawgrass was a swamp, for instance.  Tom has been blessed with very nice pieces of land recently.  He seeks them out.

I need to see a few Dye courses.  I believe I've never played one, expect for #5 and #6 at the Stadium Course.

[Norbert P]

I'm astounded at the work of both gentlemen.  In threads and conversations like this one, I believe both end up pigeon-holed in a general, inaccurate, and unfair sense.

Well said. 

Here's an excerpt from a Jeff Shelley article . . .

Who was your mentor, and why?

Doak: I learned everything I know about how to build a golf course from Pete Dye and his family. I didn't copy his style of design, but I did take his hands-on approach to construction with me. My design style is a synthesis of all the great courses I've seen around the world, both here and abroad.

Also, asked John Harbottle the same question . . .

Harbottle: I have studied and admired the work of Golden Age designers like Macdonald, Raynor, Tillinghast, Ross, Mackenzie and Thomas. However, my true mentor was Pete Dye. He was kind enough to let a college kid come under his wing, learn how to design and build a course from the ground up, and head off on his own. Pete taught me a lot about strategy, grading and challenging the best players in the world. His wife Alice kept me thinking about the average players, especially the ladies. Pete sent me to Scotland to see, play and study the real links courses and I have continued to study many courses around the world to see what makes their designs great.

 Here a link to his article . . .  (Northwest centric) 

 http://www.thepnga.org/PNGAMedia_Stories/earth_tones.asp

[Mark_Fine]

It is always tough comparing architects.  I’m a big fan of the designs of both of these guys and have played many from each (only 9 or 10 of Doak's) but dozens by Pete.  I always viewed Pete as a great tactician, maybe the best of all time.  What is amazing about almost every Pete Dye course I have ever played is that he makes you think on every hole and every shot in the round.  After you have played one of his designs rarely will you ever walk away not feeling both mentally and physically tested.  I can't say that about many other architects on such a consistent basis.  Sure he goes overboard sometimes and I have at times joked to playing partners that as soon as you see a Pete Dye golf course, you can tell he was running wild with his bulldozer.  But somehow he makes it all work and when you dissect the hole there is usually a reason for most of what was done.  Do I love every one of his courses – No.  Does he sometimes get repetitive – Yes.  But if you play enough of any one architect's courses you will begin to see this. 

I just find Pete’s courses fascinating and always know I am in for a treat when I get to play one.  I was just in Hilton Head, SC and played his new re-design – Heron Point.  It is amazing what he did with the old Sea Marsh design that once sat on the same property.  I think Heron Point is going to be way too difficult for the resort player but those were his marching instructions.  He was told by Sea Pines management that, “The general customer who is coming to resorts and playing resort golf today doesn’t want to see ‘resort friendly’.  People want a challenge.”  Well they sure will find challenge at Heron Point as it is one tough golf course, possibly the toughest on the island.  But as with most every Pete Dye course I have played, he integrates the challenges in a way only Pete Dye can do. 

I have had some great conversations about golf course design with Pete over the years and learned quite a bit.  He was an obvious choice for Forrest and I to write the Foreword to our book.   Who knows more about hazards than Pete Dye!

[Tom_Doak]

I certainly don't think I am competing with Pete Dye or his legacy.  I just hope that one day he'll go see one of my better courses and think I did alright.

As for our work, the principal difference is not in the sites we've had to work with, but in who we are building for.  Pete has spent most of the last 40 years thinking about Tour-caliber players and trying to challenge their games, and he does it better than anyone, living or dead.  For the most part, those players never come and pay to play any of the courses my clients are building, so I haven't worried about them too much.

Some people consider that a weakness of mine; on balance, I think it's been an advantage in making courses that are fun for the lesser 99% of players.  One of these days I'll build a course for a professional tournament and we'll see then whether I understand golf shots or not. 

Oh, the other difference between us is that half of my best work is overseas.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()