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Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2008, 10:57:23 AM »
Tom:

The Dick Heilman, 1977 "Golf at Merion 1896-1976" clearly pointed out in chapter 2 that The Annual Report for 1910 - "The committee sent Wilson to England and Scotland to study their famous courses and he returned with a lot of drawings which the committee examined most carefully."

I don't know when our "archives" were destroyed by a flood, but I'll bet those drawings were destroyed at that time.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2008, 11:57:55 AM »
Tom:

The Dick Heilman, 1977 "Golf at Merion 1896-1976" clearly pointed out in chapter 2 that The Annual Report for 1910 - "The committee sent Wilson to England and Scotland to study their famous courses and he returned with a lot of drawings which the committee examined most carefully."

I don't know when our "archives" were destroyed by a flood, but I'll bet those drawings were destroyed at that time.

Willie,

Finding those drawings would indeed be the golfing equivalent of The Holy Grail, at least to some of us. 

This is the first I've heard direct quotes from the Merion Governing Committee in the form of the annual report from 1910.   Thanks for pointing it out! ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2008, 12:02:22 PM »
Willie,

I'm also betting those archives included much about Robert Lesley and Hugh Wilson's efforts to get a public course built for the city of Philadelphia.    :-\

I asked here before but never heard from anyone who knows for certain, but might the archives and minutes from early Golf Association of PHiladelphia (GAP) meetings still be located somewhere??   ???

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2008, 12:20:07 PM »
Mike - That is a challenge to work on when I get back to Philly.  Do we still have our local GAP "Golf House" ?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2008, 12:23:10 PM »
Mike - That is a challenge to work on when I get back to Philly.  Do we still have our local GAP "Golf House" ?

Bill,

I'm not sure what that is?   Perhaps Tom or Wayne or Mike or Pete Trenham have more information?


btw, I have an update for you on the flooding issues we've discussed.  There have been some preliminary surveys of the downstream situation and hopefully more coming before too long.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2008, 12:46:18 PM »
"Do we still have our local GAP "Golf House" ?"

Willie:

It was still there last week because I was in it and I hope it will still be there tomorrow morning because I have a meeting in it.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2008, 12:54:25 PM »
"Tom:
The Dick Heilman, 1977 "Golf at Merion 1896-1976" clearly pointed out in chapter 2 that The Annual Report for 1910 - "The committee sent Wilson to England and Scotland to study their famous courses and he returned with a lot of drawings which the committee examined most carefully."


Willie:

I pointed that out in those debates on here with the likes of Moriarty and MacWood.

Assuming the annual  meeting for the year covering 1910 was in the winter of 1911 like most of the annual meetings of these clubs like Merion and my own, and that annual report recorded that Merion and the club had sent Wilson to Europe then that would pretty much mean it would have to have  been in 1910.

But of course it's always possible to imply that it was all made up out of whole cloth including Merion's 1910 annual report ;), as those guys seemed to suggest things that didn't make their case were.

Again, I pointed that out in those debates on here to the likes of Moriarty and MacWood but like a lot of things we pointed out they just completely ignored it and never attempted to discuss it.

It's pretty obvious why, don't you think---eg it didn't exactly support their case?  ;)


Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2008, 12:59:20 PM »
Tom,

It would certainly seem logical that something titled "Annual Report - 1910" would have either taken place in January of 1910 or January of 1911, depending on whether the title was referencing historical perspective (which it seems to be), or a planning meeting (which it possibly may have been, as well).   

Ok, Tom...cough it up.   Where are you hiding the GAP archives?  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2008, 01:00:40 PM »
"I asked here before but never heard from anyone who knows for certain, but might the archives and minutes from early Golf Association of PHiladelphia (GAP) meetings still be located somewhere??"

Mike:

Good question. As GAP is not a club I never really thought much about that before. But as I said above I'm going over there for a meeting tomorrow and I'll ask.

Somehow, and unfortunately, I doubt the minutes of GAP meetings that far back exist anymore.  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 01:04:33 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2008, 01:02:46 PM »
Mike:

If it was the annual report for the year 1910 it would pretty much have to take place after the year 1910 was over!  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2008, 01:03:32 PM »
Tom,

Maybe the place to start is seeing if Robert Lesley's papers are archives anywhere?   He was president of GAP for such a long time....it certainly seems a logical place.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2008, 01:05:31 PM »
Mike:

If it was the annual report for the year 1910 it would pretty much have to take place after the year 1910 was over!  ;)

Well, Tom...they were obviously very odd about keeping track of their years back then as we've heard here that Hugh Wilson waited until 1912 to take his 1910 voyage to Europe.  ;)

wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2008, 01:23:49 PM »
What is clear to me in all the debate about when Wilson went overseas and the basic timeline of events surrounding the development of Merion's East and West courses is that it is impossible to make conclusions from doing research in California, Ohio or anywhere else unless you start locally and exhaust all resources and slowly broaden the scope of the investigation.  What possible conclusions can be drawn from incomplete ship's manifests or a research library, even as one as strong as Mike Hurdzan's?  Unless local newspapers, libraries, historical societies, golf societies and associations (including the USGA), club archives, interviews, etc are conducted, why make premature conclusions based on very limited information?  Allowing limited information to bias an investigation often results in significant mistakes.  Research should never deviate from the scientific method if one's goal is to come up with unbiased conclusions or educated assumptions, which must be presented as such. 

One of the goals of the USGA Golf Architecture Archives and Research Center is to disseminate primary sources of information for all to study.  Eventually, the USGA GAARC will offer content and context based upon the primary assets.  Such transparent sources allow peer review of the secondary content.  The lack of peer review in golf architecture history to date has led to a number of errors and mis-attributions.  Unfortunately, when something appears in print, it is often mistaken for fact.  These facts get perpetuated and are hard to overcome, sometimes even in the face of conclusive proof to the contrary.  The USGA GAARC is something we all should get behind and assist if we want to refine the study of golf architecture and raise it to the level of other disciplines.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 01:26:39 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2008, 01:28:12 PM »
"Well, Tom...they were obviously very odd about keeping track of their years back then as we've heard here that Hugh Wilson waited until 1912 to take his 1910 voyage to Europe.   ;)"


Whatever you say, David Moriarty!   ::)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2008, 01:34:13 PM »
Sean Arble said:

"Tom
I think you are being a bit harsh on guys who look for documented evidence of events.  As you rightly point out, because documentation is lacking doesn't mean something didn't happen, but it sure makes the pieces fit together better when there is documentation - especially in cases where events are not quite clear. 
For instance, you state that the Merion history writers must have been looking at some physical evidence to deduce that Wilson went to the UK before starting on Merion.  Why?  Could it not be word of mouth which led folks to believe Wilson went to the UK earlier than might be the case?"


Sean:

You think I'm being a bit harsh on people who look for documented evidence of events do you?

Why do you say that? Is it because I said absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence? If so, that's a statement of fact. What's harsh about it?

Some of us certainly didn't get along very well with David Moriarty or even Tom MacWood who certainly seemed to imply a much greater influence from MacDonald/Whigam on the architecture of Merion than some of us feel is warranted by a ton of various types of evidence to the contrary including the Wilson brothers themselves. But that certainly doesn't mean I, for one, don't admire Moriarty, for instance, for all the research he did checking ship manifests between Europe and America at that time. But as Mike Cirba just said, it seemed he was strongly implying that if a ship manifest with Wilson on it could not be found BEFORE Merion went into construction that strongly implied he did not go over there BEFORE Merion went into construction.

We don't believe that absence of the evidence of a ship manifest with Wilson on it implies such a thing and furthermore we believe that implying such a thing is pretty illogical and just not very good deducing of the events of history with what is available. Does David Moriarty thinks he searched the manifest of every ship that sailed between the US and Europe during those years? If he does, I'd suggest it’s a whole lot more than just a little unlikely that he’s mistaken.

And then there're certainly other logical ways of looking at what already exists. In Desmond Tolhurst's history book of Merion he mentioned that the club decided to send Wilson to Europe in 1910 to study golf architecture in preparation for the building of Merion East!

Where did Tolhurst get that date and that information? Well, obviously today we aren't exactly sure. But because we aren't sure does that mean he was wrong or odder yet that he just made it up? On the latter, I would very seriously doubt that. But yet, someone like David Moriarty was seemingly implying that since the only ship manifest he could find that had Hugh Wilson on it was the Spring of 1912, that must mean the trip Tolhurst was referring to and that his contention that a trip in 1910 couldn’t have happened. Is that a logical assumption to make? I, for one, don't think so. Why would Moriarty just assume that since that was the only ship manifest he could find with Hugh Wilson on it and that that must mean that was Wilson’s first trip to Europe for Merion? And, even odder, why would he assume that might have been Wilson's first trip to Europe? Those assumptions are not good ones, in my opinion, and they don't seem like particularly intelligent research deductions either.

But you and the others who don’t seem satisfied with what evidence does exist, should consider this carefully. Unless, Tolhurst and former Merion history writers just made up that 1910 trip of Wilson’s to Europe out of whole cloth which seems unlikely, then where did Merion get any evidence of the 1910 trip of Wilson’s they reported? Well, obviously some of them may’ve gotten it from contemporaneous reporting done of that fact. The article from the Philadelphia Public Ledger in October, 1913 is one such example.

In that article, the reporter said Wilson went to Europe for Merion ‘some years ago’! That article was written in 1913 and if the first and the only trip Wilson made to Europe for Merion was in 1912 the previous year (as a David Moriarty seems to believe and seems to be implying), that writer probably would’ve been called on that as inaccurate by Wilson or Merion just after he wrote it. One should probably even consider that that article writer probably checked his facts and dates with Wilson and others in that article BEFORE he wrote it, as good reporters usually do. We, here, in Philadelphia, are aware of a number of facts that were reported in newspapers and periodicals in which the writer was asked to correct various reported inaccuracies. The most notable was probably Tillinghast’s reporting of who made a donation to Pine Valley to finish the course after Crump died. Tillinghast did do a rather comprehensive retraction.

But the thing that fascinates me the most, and is fairly comical, is some today actually seem to feel when some of these old articles from the teens or whatever are found again today that means facts and evidence in them is being found for the very FIRST time. Aren’t they forgetting that probably thousands of people read those articles back then and in many cases those articles were saved by the clubs mentioned in the articles. Perhaps Tolhurst or a previous history writer was looking at that very article posted above or others that were more exact about the dates and Wilson’s trips to Europe.

People like you and Moriarty and MacWood may even try to suggest that some or most of the facts reported in some of those old articles was just wrong back then and has therefore always been inaccurate, but, again, I’d suggest if those articles were reporting totally false facts contemporaneously the writers of those articles probably would’ve been asked to print retractions and report things accurately by the very people they were reporting on, like Hugh Wilson himself.

Just because some of us haven’t been able to find some of those old articles is no reason to ASSUME they don’t exist or never existed or the events they report and explain didn’t happen.

That’s the problem I have with researchers on here who just ASSUME an absence of evidence is basically the same thing as evidence of absence.

By the way, what is an example of EVIDENCE of ABSENCE in the case of Wilson being in Europe in 1910? Well, obviously it would be if we had evidence that he was here in America throughout 1910. We actually did that with Wilson’s whereabouts in the first half of 1911 by the postmarks and stationery of his constant correspondence with Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture. In that time span Wilson was in Philadelphia enough to preclude the amount of time necessary to go to Europe.

 



Tom

See now, you are off on some hysterical moon chase. Go back and read what I wrote.  You must stop jumping to conclusions that are not there.  Because I said a guy like Wilson could design a course like Merion without going to the UK before he started doesn't mean at all that he didn't go to the UK beforehand or that he had nothing to learn from UK courses.  Additionally and it was made quite clear, I am not debating Wilson and if  I were debating Wilson I would think it odd that the Merion project was such a stutter start deal with change upon change very quickly if Wilson had learned all that much from his first trip (whenever that was) to the UK.  Obviously things were not ideal and this process of perfection took quite some time.  To the point where there was a lot more expertise floating around the US from the time Merion was started to the point of what many would consider the Merion we know of today. 

However, I accept that Wilson was the main man at Merion no matter how that came to be.  I don't know why you insist that I believe otherwise other than you don't read my posts properly.  I am more concerned with the process by which info is deemed as the leading theory or more accurately - what is pushed about as fact.  Most of the time, its down to a combination of interpretation, experience and reasonableness.  Personally, I would like to see a bit more open mindedness rather than shutting people down by constantly bringing up situations of contention simply over a matter of a disagreement in which the conclusions often rely on supposition anyway.  Looking for more evidence and presenting alternate theories is how things move along. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2008, 01:37:43 PM »
I'm thinking a possible lead is the now defunct Rittenhouse Club where all of these men were members and which used to be the venue of the GAP meetings.

I'm trying if their archives are housed anywhere.

wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2008, 01:42:53 PM »
Mike,

The Rittenhouse Club (I ate there often) is being redeveloped after sitting abandoned for a decade or more.  It is being turned into a retail, residential and hotel complex many stories higher than it was as a town club for gentlemen.  If you contacted someone at the PA Historical Society, they might be able to assist.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2008, 02:21:18 PM »
"Tom
See now, you are off on some hysterical moon chase. Go back and read what I wrote.  You must stop jumping to conclusions that are not there.  Because I said a guy like Wilson could design a course like Merion without going to the UK before he started doesn't mean at all that he didn't go to the UK beforehand or that he had nothing to learn from UK courses."

Sean:

I think perhaps you should see here that I don't need to reread what you wrote particularly since you just said it again above. You said once again, that you feel a guy like Hugh Wilson could design a course like Merion without going to the UK before he started.

Isn't it interesting that Hugh Wilson and those involved with the design and creation of Merion certainly didn't feel that way? We do have their own writing and their own words to that effect.

So, Sean, who is it that one should put more stock in as to the relevence of Wilson going to Europe to study architecture before designing and constructing Merion-----you and your feeling that it was irrelevent or the ones who actually did it and wrote about it?  ;)

Isn't it interesting when one writes something and someone disagrees with it or questions it, the almost automatic retort is the one responding should reread what was written? Perhaps you should read better what you write before you post it no matter what point it is you're claiming to make or not make.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 02:22:56 PM by TEPaul »