[rchesnut]

I'm not a golf architect, but would love to hear a perspective from the folks that do this for a living.

I'm a capable bunker player, but from time to time I'll use a putter to get out of a greenside bunker where there's no lip -- I think it's a good safe play in certain circumstances, and I enjoy hitting a "different" shot around the greens from time to time.

I've noticed on a course where I play that has redone some bunkers lately, that there's more sand in the bunkers.  As a result, some bunkers have at least temporarily lost their lips with sand raked up to the edge, and can be putted.  I asked the manager of the club   (himself an outstanding golfer) whether that was intentional, and was told no...and that bunkers should always have a lip, and that golfer should never be able to putt out of them.

That didn't strike me as correct...I've played a number of courses where the putter was an option from certain places in certain greenside bunkers, and  would think that architects occcasionally design greenside bunkers where the putter is a smart option.  But I've read MacKenzie's book and found nothing on the subject, and thought I'd ask here.  Is it ever an intentional element of design?  In what circumstances?  And what "Golden Age" architects, if any, were known for employing it?

Rob

[Mike_Cirba]

My dad went for a spell where he tried to putt out of any greenside bunker he entered.

Then again, he was a horrible bunker player.

Then again, he also went for a spell where he tried to hit three-wood out of any fairway bunker he entered.

Then again, he also went for a spell where he putted one-handed.

Then again, he also went for a spell where he started his swing from the top, sans backswing, figuring if it was good enough for baseball, why not golf?

My dad was always searching for the secret to the game.

Damn, I love that guy.

[Garland Bayley]

Can you putt out of most water hazards? A bunker is defined to be a hazard. I think the golden age guys felt a bunker should create a hazard too, so I doubt any of them would be creating hazards you can putt out of towards the hole. This of course refers to hazards in the line of instinct which are to create lines of charm different from the line of instinct.

[JESII]

Can you putt out of most water hazards? A bunker is defined to be a hazard. I think the golden age guys felt so too, so I doubt any of them would be creating hazards you can putt out of towards the hole. This of course refers to hazards in the line of instinct which are to create lines of charm different from the line of instinct.

Have you been sampling some of Kavanaugh's supply?

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Sully,

I defer to your greater expertise on this one. What do you think about the golden age guys and putting out of bunkers?

And what exactly made you think I might be sample Barney fuel? 

[Adam Clayman]

Rob, I'm not a fan of precluding creative shotmaking. I find the decision to putt out of a bunker often is very creative.

I did it last year on Ballyneal's third while I was playing with one of Doak's associates. Afterwards he said he would have to fix that. Naturally I told him that I felt he was wrong to do anything to the bunker because I putted out of it. Taking away that option, intended or not by the finish guy, is a mistake.

Garland, It was probably some guy who putted out of a hazard that first caused some other self-appointed dictator of what's acceptable to litter the GCA landscape with water features.
 

[Tim Nugent]

I can't speak for everyone but if a bunker doesn't have defined edge, is it a hazard?  Typically, bunkers have at least a 4" 'edge' to be able maintain a consistant sand depth. (Waste areas aren't bunkers/hazards so they can flow right into the grass). Unfortunately, sand quality deterioates over time and should be replaced.  However, this is an expensive (and pain-in-the-ass) proposition.  So, many supers will just add a inch or so of good sand over the top.  After a number of years, the bunker fills up.  Other supers I know want the sand up to the grass line so that the dirt from an exposed verticle edge won't wash into the bunker and containinate the sand.  So, I would suspect at your course, it is a manitenance issue.

As far as putting out of a bunker, I say do what ever it takes.  I've done it when it was the best solution.

[Jason Topp]

I think more greenside bunkers should be shallow to allow for the possibility of putting out of them. The good player will hardly ever do it because it is difficult to get the ball close. The poor player will enjoy the option because it is easy to get the ball out of the bunker.

Deep greenside bunkers, by contrast, aren't much more difficult than shallow bunkers for a good bunker player and impossible for a beginner.

[PThomas]

one of of Jack's approximately 12, 327  instructional books he even advises you to putt out of the bunker if the lip is low

[BVince]

Right after a rain storm, it is often easier to putt out of a shallow greenside bunker than risk catching one thin and watching it sail over the green.  It does depend on the situation though.

[Sean Leary]

Hi Sully,

I defer to your greater expertise on this one. What do you think about the golden age guys and putting out of bunkers?

And what exactly made you think I might be sample Barney fuel? 

Garland,

Read the first line of your initial post again Closely...

[Dale_McCallon]

 My home course has very shallow bunkers and many have almost no lip so putter is an option quite a bit.  I guess ego gets in my way though and I always pull out wedge.

A friend has gotten pretty good at the shot though.  I particularly like watching him putt and try to ramp it up over the lip when one is in the way.

[JohnH]

one of of Jack's approximately 12, 327  instructional books he even advises you to putt out of the bunker if the lip is low

Another Jack basher....

Why should sand traps be made immanently fair?

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Sully,

I defer to your greater expertise on this one. What do you think about the golden age guys and putting out of bunkers?

And what exactly made you think I might be sample Barney fuel? 

Garland,

Read the first line of your initial post again Closely...

  I guess I am a little dense here. All I see is typical pithy engineer speak of not such a great significance that it would suggest being fueled by Barney fuel.


EDIT: I edited that first line to straighten out the only thing I suspect you guys are picking up on.

[Garland Bayley]

one of of Jack's approximately 12, 327  instructional books he even advises you to putt out of the bunker if the lip is low

Another Jack basher....

Why should sand traps be made immanently fair?

Give me a break! How can you see Jack basher in such an attempt at humor?

[JohnH]

Wonder -  it was so obvious even I missed it......

[Kyle Harris]

Jim,

One can putt out of the bunker on the right side of 11 green at Huntingdon Valley if they aim to the high point. I was about 6 inches short of succeeding in getting the ball tucked next to a front right hole and left it in the collar. That is, unless Scott has changed that.

[Michael Powers]

How about a bunker lesson; not from your buddy either, a PGA Professional.

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