[Mike Bowline]

What do all you professional golf course architects think about this programme? I am considering enrolling in the programme and I am interested in the views of the pros. I have a civil engineering degree plus many years of construction management experience, but I do not have the design piece in my education.

[Mike_Young]

I would think it is probably a very interesting program and I am sure some good guys have gone thru it....but my first question to them would be.   How many courses are on the ground by graduates and what is the volme of $$$$ generated by such.  You will probably find it much more efficient to find a job with a golf contractor where you can create a network.....they probably gain more from your tuition than you do from their knowledge.  JMO

[Joshua Pettit]

Mike,

I am a Landscape Architecture student from the University of Massachusetts currently on a study exchange at Edinburgh College of Art.  While I'm here in Edinburgh, one of the classes I am taking is part of the MsC Golf Course Architecture program, and I have gotten to know Paul Albanese quite well.  Paul is an architect based in Michigan and he runs the GCA program for ECA. 

Based on your circumstances, I would recommend the program.  You will learn a lot, but as anything else, you learn the most by actual experience in the field.  Edinburgh is a fantastic city to live in and there are plenty of great golf courses nearby to study (a great reason on its own to come here).

Let me know if you are interested and I can get you some more information about the program, and I will put you in direct contact with Paul if you'd like.  Best of luck.

[Ryan Farrow]

I just received a forwarded e-mail which was sent to our landscape architecture department at ASU. After hearing about one of my classmates applying for it a few weeks ago, I read up on it. If money was not an object I would go for it just to be in that part of the world so I could see those courses. But I just don't see any educational benefit for me. If you are lucky and motivated enough, you can learn everything they will teach you by the time you graduate from a regular Landscape Architecture program.

[Marty Bonnar]

Mike,
I think I am right in saying that everyone - except me and maybe one other! - who was in my year on the course is now in the business. Maybe 13/14 guys.

Qualification+Experience=Priceless.

AND, Edinburgh is gorgeous, Belhaven tasty and Scottish girls - ehm, open to suggestion!

FBD.

[Mike Bowline]

I think I am right in saying that everyone - except me and maybe one other! - who was in my year on the course is now in the business. Maybe 13/14 guys.
[/quote]
That 13/14 is a pretty good batting average for graduates getting into the business in today's business climate. Thanks for the post and insight.
Aside, ECA is rolling out a remote programme, whereby the students do not move to Scotland, but instead learn in a virtual environment at home via chat rooms, self-study, web-based learning, crits via Skype, etc. and make 3-5 trips to Scotland for 2-3 weeks for intensive learning, field trips., lectures, and some beer I am told. The head of the programme, Paul Albanese, tells me it is a very user-driven learning environment. But at today's exchange rate, it is a tough financial pill to swallow!
With your having been through the programme in Edinburgh personally, what would you project might suffer in a remote-learning scenario?

[Marty Bonnar]

Mike,
I'd say that a huge part of any design-based course of study is the opportunity for peer-review, aka, the infamous 'Crit' session.
The Crit is your opportunity to present your design and ideas to your fellows and superiors! and for them to ask pertinent questions regarding your design choices and process.
A few good Crits will set you up for life. Any client is a pussycat after you've been soundly and comprehensively rodgered a few times by your mates!
 
FBD.

[Michael Christensen]

approx how much is the program??  with the exchange rate, it has to be pricey for us colonists........but being able to spend some serious time in scotland would be fantastic...I am sure you could get a few rounds in!

[Ryan Farrow]

Any client is a pussycat after you've been soundly and comprehensively rodgered a few times by your mates!
 
FBD.

I literally could never have come up with a better comment. Brilliant!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mike Bowline,

You should look at applying for the Diploma course directly run by the European Institute of Golf Course Architects (www.eigca.org).

I believe the Edinburgh Masters programme is no longer affiliated with the EIGCA.

You can make up your own mind whether you consider that relevant or not

[Steve Okula]

I went through the Diploma course in Edinburgh in 2003-5. Then it was the brain-child of the European Institute of Golf Course Architects, and presented under the umbrella of the landscape design school at the Edinburgh College of Art, but it has since left there.

I was disappointed in the course. I thought there was a lot of redundancy. For example, in the course of two years we had no fewer than four different lectures on the construction of U.S.G.A. greens. But my main gripe was the "crits", as mentioned above. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't think I was getting my money's worth spending so much time listening to the other students. There were some interesting lecturers, but also some irrelevant ones.

Another complaint is we spent way too much time on rather uncomfortable buses going out to visit golf courses. There was once a ten hour round trip from Edinburgh to the golf greenkeeper show at Harrogate. I could visit all the golf courses I want on my own, I don't need to pay tuition to do that. And if I wanted to go to Harrogate, why would I pay money to go to Edinburgh?

In my opinion, there wasn't near enough time spent on the subjects I really needede to learn, such as contour drawings and Auto-Cad.

I wouldn't say it was a complete waste of time, but out of a total of ten weeks in Edinburgh, including various field trips, I thought the useful portion could have been boiled down to about 3 weeks. The whole thing cost me about $25,000, with travel from my home near Paris to the U.K.
If I had to do it again, I wouldn't.

That said, I know that some of the other students who attended the program with me are of a different opinion, and found it much more useful than I did. Besides that, I understand the program has been radically altered and is under new management. They now hold court in different countries, like Portugal and Germany, which sounds to me like a fine idea. So perhaps my review is irrelevant at this point.

The Scots must be among the most civilized tribes on earth. As for Edinburgh, well, I was unfortunate to have been there mainly in the colder months. I thought it was depressing, a dark, wet, chilly, gloomy place all covered in ancient coal soot. I'm sure the Algarve will be a lot cheerier.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The Diploma course is now run over two years with five two week seminars in Surrey, Germany, Ireland, Portugal and St. Andrews and substantial course work and work experience between each seminar. It currently costs £6,000 plus expenses.

[Tim Nugent]

As in all endeavors, there is no such thing as too much knowledge.  However, IMO golf architecture can't be learned in the classroom.  Sure, the basics can be gotten there but to me, it is one of the last remaining Master/apprentice educations.  It takes years to design and construct a course and until you've done about 10, you're still feeling you're way through.  Being able to work with a seasoned veteran who has experienced many different situations to guide you is priceless.  I can still remember hearing Dad say (on numerous occasions when I thought I had just come up with something new), 'I tried that before - didn't work and here's why'. 

I don't think having classmates render opinions is really worth much.  You can get that in the pub down the street for free - or the cost of a couple pints.  If someones going to "crit" something, I would want them to have some grey hair. 

I think these types of programs are trying to address the desires of those who want to vault into the design field. rather than get the experience first hand by way of the scooll of hard knocks.  I know there is the "can't get hired without the experience but can't get the experience without getting hired" augument.  If I were to hire someone, this wouldn't hold much sway in that decision but it would show a desire.  As Mike Young implied, I would rather have someone who knew How to build a course and teach them how to design it rather than the other way around.  I'm sure our friend if you took the opportunity cost of this program (actual cost plus the cost of not working) and told a design firm or construction company you would normal wages less that amount for a year, it would be a better investment.  I know of several designers who did something along those lines.

A couple of old quotes that are very pertinent are 'fools rush in where angels fear to tread' and 'experience is a dear school, but only fools will learn'. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tim,

I think that this is a rather idealised view of the profession. Saying it is one of the last remaining Master / Apprentice type professions only holds sway because of the relatively few people that work in the field. ALL professionals gain mostly by work experience.

Your view of Education is also rather cynical. It being a difficult profession to enter, any advantage can help. Education will provide you with networking opportunities and work experience as well as discipline and direction. To say that discussion with fellow classmates is as worthy as discussion with a man in the pub is ludicrous. You are assuming that all students have no knowledge of Golf Course Construction or Architecture when they begin the course. You learn by bouncing ideas around.

[Tim Nugent]

Ally, you mis-understood my comment.  I agree that most professions, experience is key, I am not cynical of the value of education, otherwise I wouldn't have a Master's degree.  I wasn't thinking of "some guy in a pub" but rather those classmates and spend the time in class learning from someone who had "been there, done that".  I took the short course at Harvard taught by Jeff Cornish and Bob Graves - but I was already working in the field, so I wasn't implying that those in the program knew nothing about the field (however, I would suspect that their experience level to be in the bottom quartile).

My augument is that a program as this might not be the best use of HIS resources.  But as I stated in my open line - no such thing as too much knowledge.  Sure, it's a tool, sure, you can network but in answer the original post, the gentleman already has a civil engineering background along with construction management experience, but no design experience. Hence, he already has the disipline (that's not an easy degree to get) and the direction - if he's leaving what I would hazard a guess at a very well compensated position to take a pay cut.

 Will a program like this be as valuable as spending a year working in a design office?  Unlike many, he already can bring years of knowledge and experience to the table.  One poster lamented that they didn't spend enough time on some technical aspects and too much on others.  I suspect that our poster knows his way around a topo map already along with the other pertinant civil items (soils, drainage, hydraulics, surveying, etc.).  Every persons situation is different so it's unfair to generalize.  If he had stated that he was an accountant, I would have a different take on it.  That said, if he wasn't able to find a position in a firm - because yes, there aren't many firms out there, then this might be a good fall back plan.  But, remember, there is no guarantee that after expending the time and not so small sum, that he will get the job he is looking for.  Then what?  He is asking for advice, I gave him my take -that's all.  Don't read more into it than what's there.

[Ally Mcintosh]

OK Tim,

I don't have any problem with anything you have said there.

I agree that a position in a Design firm would be preferable to taking a year to do a full time Masters course.

However, as you correctly say, you can't have too much knowledge and spending on part-time education to supplement your work in a design office (or on a construction site) can only be of benefit. And all this is assuming of course that the original poster can actually pick up work in the Design field on his current qualifications and experience.

You are right though. We can't generalise. Everyone has to approach from the angle most suitable to them.

[Mike Bowline]

As the original poster, I thank you all for weighing on the merits of the ECA MSc programme, or any advanced education in golf course design for that matter. I understand everthing Tim and Ally have traded back and forth, especially in reference to the merits of education vs. experience. I think we all agree that myself, a civil engineer/construction manager, needs experience with golf boots on plus design training. Tim's suggestion to investigate a position with a contractor or design firm at normal wages less the ECA opportunity cost is intriguing and one I will pursue. The advice to start with construction and then move to design, as opposed to the opposite path, is logical and makes sense.

However, the problem appears to be the slow state of the golf course development business in the U.S.A. and consequently, the design business and construction business are also in a slump. I view the ECA programme as a "Plan B" in case I am unsuccessful entering the golf development (design or construction) profession in the U.S.A. before the fall of 2008 when the programme starts. in Scotland.  Almost every architect and contractor I have communicated with over the last two months mentions that firms are down-sizing and not hiring in the U.S.A., which also means I will eventually be in competition for jobs with those who have already worked in golf course architecture but were down-sized.

You are correct that the tuition and expenses are a problem with the ECA programme, especially in view of the poor exchange rate between the dollar and the British pound. I do not want to spend a year plus the costs of the programme if it is not viewed favorably within the golf design profession. I have been told the Programme Director, Paul Albanese, is respected in the Society and everything he does is first-rate. This excites me as I prepare for a potential year of schooling under his tutelage.

Nevertheless, I will keep networking within the golf development business, keep talking to different people and getting my name and expereince out there, knowing that eventually my skills and experience will match a need and then I will have my foot in the door.  If not, then I will be back in college after a long hiatus!

[TEPaul]

"Mike,
I'd say that a huge part of any design-based course of study is the opportunity for peer-review, aka, the infamous 'Crit' session.
The Crit is your opportunity to present your design and ideas to your fellows and superiors! and for them to ask pertinent questions regarding your design choices and process.
A few good Crits will set you up for life. Any client is a pussycat after you've been soundly and comprehensively rodgered a few times by your mates!
 
FBD."


Martin the Big B:

What in the Holy Hell goes on over there? That remark of yours sounds to me like you guys over there are a bunch of sexual deviants! I doubt I'll be going to school over there in any case but if I did I'd like to learn about golf architecture without getting molested in the process.

[Brian Phillips]

I did both.  Worked in Golf Course Construction for a couple of years, then applied for the Masters course.  Moved my family over for the year, re-mortgaged my house, lost a years income.

I was a Project Manager in a secure job but just went for it.

Was it worth it? Yep, one of the best years of my life.  I was lucky though, I got on well with the tutor Mike Wood and we had a superb group.  The more I look back on that year the more I realise how much we taught each other.  That is what everyone forgets. A Masters course is not there to really spoonfead you everything, it is just there to spur you on, set you in the right direction and then you are supposed to communicate with your fellow students and learn from them.  Look at the list below and these are some of the best you guys you will ever meet and I learnt something of each and everyone of them.

Ronan Branigan - got his own design company in Ireland with his Dad
FBD - non stop humour and positive thinking...you all know him
Tom Cushnahan - works for David Kidd
Dougie Walker - works for David Kidd
Tom Deignan - in the business in Australia
Gary Johnson - works for European Golf Design
Branden Wilburn - Got his own design company in the States
Mika - crazy Finn, has his design firm in Finland
Curt Simpson - I not sure where he is..(just joking Curt..)
Chinese guy - he is in the business in China, photoshop expert...really sorry can't remember his name...damn thats embarrassing (Thanks Martin...Bing Dai)
Jay the Canadian rocket (don't mess with him...) - in golf course construction
Geoff Nourse - he was a banker and only did the course for fun. Great guy.

So out all the guys there are only two that are not in the business and one of those is FBD enjoying himself in Fife. He would walk into a job if he was prepared to move.

I learnt a lot on the course and found it very worthwhile.  One of the biggest critics of the course was David Kidd but me and him had a laugh about that a couple of weeks ago as he now has 3 that have attended the course and one Landscape Architect from EGA.

I am now on the Education Board for the Diploma course being run by the EIGCA.  We are really working hard to make our course worthwhile with less travelling and more work being achieved when students arrive for their two weeks.  The course is going to get better and better.  This year we have Tom Doak talking at Portmarnock for one day on the Irish two weeks.

As Jeff Brauer said to me to get me to join the EIGCA 'you can only change an Institute or Organisation from the inside, not by moaning about them from the outside.' 

So the only way we can improve the education in GCA is to help or volunteer your time.  If it had not been for people who lectured on my course or people like Tom Doak or Jeff Brauer or David Kidd who always reply to emails then I would not be in the business myself.

Does having M.Sc help me get work...? Damn right it does.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike B:

No school program is really going to prepare you for the profession, it's just a good boost.

The early program at Edinburgh was extremely successful, but partly because the profession was very closed in Europe before that, and many countries just starting to develop golf courses were undersupplied with golf architects.  The Americans who went through the program have not had the same success rate because there was much more established competition here.

Now the program gets back to the real numbers game.  How many new architects per year can the business really support, from all corners combined?  I don't think any program can keep sending 13 students per year into this profession, unless the majority of them are happy to work in golf course construction for their careers; that's why no American university has taken up such a program even though several have considered it.

You just have to keep your eyes open at all times for opportunities to learn and to advance, because those are the same qualities which will make you successful at running a business of your own someday.  There will always be room for new designers, but talent alone is not a guarantee of success.  The foundations of Coach Wooden's "pyramid" are Industriousness and Enthusiasm.

[Marty Bonnar]

Everything Brain said.
Like him, I gave up a really well-paid job to do the course. I love Golf (naturally!). I love the landscape (the Villa Lante gives me as much wood as Charlize Theron). I love Nature (I get to work with our Ranger Service every day). This was an opportunity too good to miss.
Sure, it must have cost me something around 50k (£ ) in fees, expenses and lost earnings, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
I told the guys on the course often that I was only there for three things:
M.
S.
C.
Those letters got me the GREAT job I'm in today and opened a good few doors since then.
I am so BORED hearing the 'better off working in the field' comments. Total BS. There's more than one way to skin a cat and as Brian pointed out everyone from the course who wants to be in the business is just exactly that!
Learn the lessons from REAL Architects. A combo of the academic and the practical have always been the ideal (Platonic, even!)
best,
FBD.

Oh PS Ding Bai and Curt's surname is Liesenfeld, I think?

[Emil Weber]

Gents,
Does anyone have news about this programme ? I've been searching it. but it looks like the course has disappeared from ECA..

[Tom Kelly]

I don't believe the college runs the course anymore. The EIGCA are still running a diploma course themselves, though the format has changed since it was last discussed on this thread;

http://www.eigca.org/BecomeGCADiploma.ink

There are a few regular posters on GCA who are currently just finshing/have recently finished the course that may be able to help you more than myself.

[Emil Weber]

Thanks Tom! It's a pity the Programme had to go.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Gentlemen,
This is what makes our"club' so outstanding, the ablilty to get insider information on the real world of architecture and the opportunity for incoming hopefuls to get an opinion from the experts as to the value of a potential career move.
Where else can students learn from their to be peers in such an informative and informal setting >? bravo to all who have contributed.

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