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Mark_Fine

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Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2008, 01:39:55 PM »
Sean,
I'll keep Huron Hills in mind down the road.  At some point maybe we will contact someone and/or you could set the process in motion.
Mark

Mike_Cirba

Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2008, 01:46:17 PM »
Thoughts for the Philly guys. If Cobbs magically gets restored, what will it do to greens fees?

At what point does playing the game outweigh the architecture?

Mike,

We're getting way ahead of ourselves here.

IF a restoration effort ever takes place, I would think that the wise intent of any restoration would be same or reduced fees for local citizens (who pay for it thru taxes) and juniors and possibly seniors.

 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 01:48:50 PM by MPCirba »

Lou_Duran

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Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2008, 04:22:49 PM »
It is extremely dangerous to generalize.  Try getting a tee time at most munis in the Los Angeles area.  Things may be slowing overall, particularly where the supply and demand factors were already out of whack before critical industries began to experience hard times.  Perhaps a shift in consumer tastes and preferences away from golf is taking place.  For those who believe that golf is not sustainable environmentally or justifiable based on its relatively low participation rate, maybe this is a good thing.  God knows that there never is a shortage of public uses for the taxpayers' money.

As to the relative cost of new technology, I just bought a set of 2-W Callaway clones for around $60 including shipping.  Last year, I bought a near new Taylor Made R-5 Tour driver with a premium shaft for around $90, delivered.  This weekend I paid $3.50 for a loaf of bread, and about the same per gallon of gasoline.  Compared to what I paid for these items back in the 1970s, adjusting for inflation, they were probably a bargain.  Example: my RCA video recorder was around $1,000 as was my 25" RCA monitor.

Regarding those evil marketers, do they put a gun to our heads and make us pull the clubs off the rack?  We give away too much of our own power to others in exchange for what?  Not having to take responsibility for our lot?  Without context and perspective, many things are misdiagnosed and real problems exacerbated.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2008, 05:19:45 PM »
You can buy GREAT drivers for often just over $100, if you're simply willing to settle for technology that is 6 months to a year old. I bought a Ping driver that I have been absolutely killing for $50 a year ago. No one is forcing anyone to buy the latest, greatest and most expensive drivers out there.

Furthermore, the munis and less expensive daily fees around here are packed, at least every time I manage to get out.

The biggest reason I don't play more is simply time. It's my most limited and most precious commodity. I'd guess that's the case with a lot of muni golfers.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Don Dinkmeyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2008, 07:09:32 PM »
Really, really interesting. I dont have much to say because it highlights so well the real problems with golf in 2008,

but it is this kind of sharing/posting that I appreciate on GCA!

Mike_Cirba

Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2008, 09:36:53 PM »
Lou,

Please...I'm really not trying to grind the wheels of capitalism to a screeching halt...honestly.    ::) ;D

I'm quite sure that commerce will survive despite some of us periodically criticizing its worst excesses and sometimes its focus on our most base tendencies.

I'm also going to beg you to tell me the name of your merchandiser!  ;)

Seriously, my beef with the equipment companies is the arms race they started in the past decade or so, and the fact that they purposefully, willingly, and knowingly bent the rules and did everything possible to work around the USGA's somewhat primitive measuring techniques.

A man contemplating taking up the game walks into Dick's sporting goods.   He sees a driver on the rack with a price tag of $499.   He leaves.

I know all about shareholders, technology, blah, blah, blah.

It's just very easy, and I suspect with recent economic news it will become easier still...to quickly kill the golden goose.

When overall price vastly exceeds utility, and demand falls because of other seemingly unrelated economic factors, then the double whammy that inevitably results will leave few winners.

And that's economic dogma right from the Grand Old Party textbook, my friend.




George Pazin

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Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2008, 01:36:45 PM »
A man contemplating taking up the game walks into Dick's sporting goods.   He sees a driver on the rack with a price tag of $499.   He leaves.

Really, who takes up the game in this manner? I started with hand-me-down clubs from a friend - I'd be shocked if most didn't start the same way.

There's plenty of drivers at Dick's less than $100.

That's like saying someone wouldn't buy a car because they see an ad for a $100,000 Mercedes.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2008, 04:04:30 PM »
Mike,
In 1976 a set of Hogan Apex (new) were $256.00, $952.00  in 2008 dollars.   
In 1976 a dozen Titleist golf balls(new) were $12.50, $46.51 in 2008 dollars.
In 1976 the NGF stated the average muni was priced between $4.56 and $5.59, that's $16.97 and $20.80 in 2008, with a 'better' muni charging $8.00 ($29.76 today) and a place like Cog Hill charging $10.00 ($37.20 today).

The 'better' muni today is more like $75.00, Cog Hill is over $100.00. Even if you believe, erroneously, that wages have kept up with prices there is still a big gap between what prices 'should' be and what is actually charged for golf.

It's not the equipment. 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 04:10:36 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2008, 04:30:40 PM »
MPCirba,

It seems like your anger or ire is misdirected.  It is not the role of the manufacturers to protect the game in the form you deem appropriate.  The USGA does have the responsibility of weighing the relatively wide variety of interests and constituencies in golf and making sound judgements to further the long term well-being of the game.  Economics is one component, but not necessarily the corporate interests of the equipment makers (they can take care of themselves).

Like George, my first set was used.  In the late 1960s, I paid $40 for a Walter Hagen laminated driver and 3-wood; 3, 5, 7, 9 irons, putter and a canvass bag.  In inflation adjusted dollars, I could do better on eBay today.

I am not big on utility theory anyways as it is highly theoretical and mostly subjective.  Those who spend $4,000 on a set of clubs or, for that matter, on an afternoon delight obviously have a different utility function than I do.  Focusing on "our most base tendencies" and analysis of why we do what we do are certainly warranted and can be interesting as well as edifying.  In my opinion, the often made excuse or argument that the devil made me do is rather vacuous.  We typically have options on how we spend our money and time.

The beauty of capitalism which you claim to understand, but feel compelled to "criticize its worst excesses" is that it allows you and me to exercise our choices among numerous options.  The tyranny of what is typically offered as a cure is the elimination of these choices in favor of someone else deciding for us.  Personally, I'll take my chances living with my basest of tendencies and accepting their consequences.  If my $200 Hogan blades don't perform as well as the next guy's $4,000 whatevers, I'll just have to work at it a little harder, get more strokes, or find someone else to play with.  If my clubs are non-conforming and I still want to play golf, I just won't enter competitions which impose those rules or participate in the handicap system.

As to my merchandiser, I am he.  eBay is the marketplace I tend to use now that I am not a club member.    

      

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2008, 05:00:08 PM »
Mr. Kennedy,

There may be an apples-to-oranges problem with your data.  The term "muni" is typically not synonomous with daily-fee (though I don't know that this is necessarily true in NGF terminology).  Cog Hill is a privately-owned daily-fee course.  I am fairly sure that I paid upwards $50 back in the early 1980s to play it.  Also, the advent of the CCFAD was in the 1990s.  There are numerous true municipal courses in the high-cost/low-supply Los Angeles area charging under $30.  In the Dallas/Ft. Worth area where the supply is ample, golf is in the same real price level and of higher quality than when I moved there in the late 1970s.

As much as anything else, I think that golf is being hurt more by the total time it takes to play and alternative recreation choices.  Our more sedentary lifestyle (with the resulting increases in reported Type II diabetes) point to this shift.  Just think of the amount of time we spend on this site and others on the Internet which five years ago we might have instead squeezed an extra round or two of golf a month.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2008, 06:19:13 PM »
Lou,
I only visit this site when I'm at work or at night or during the winter months and only if I'm not vacationing in warmer climes.  ;D

I wasn't clear when making the distinction between Cog Hill and munis, but the $10.00 figure for CH is correct for 1976.  Given what happened between '76 and the early '80s, I don't discount your memory of a $50.00 fee.

There are still very good values in muni and daily fees to be found, but what I was trying to expose was the well over normal inflation that some of the top courses, even the top munis, presently charge, and when these courses are in or near 'golf destinations', it can be worse. The laundry list of reasons for golf's loss of players is long, cost of equipment is a minor component.

A dozen golf balls cost ca. $12.00 in 1922, that's just over $151.00 today.
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2008, 09:22:56 PM »
J.K.,

I am glad you're getting your rounds in.

I think you're right about resort pricing.  I paid $95 for Pebble Beach as a walk-up in 1983, and maybe $60 or so for Spyglass.  What is it today? $500 and $350, respectively?

The challenge for most of today's operators has to be greater asset utilization as prices for their inputs keep going up much faster than what they can pass through to their customers.  I don't know how much the margins have eroded, but it has to be a much more difficult business than it was back in the 1990s.  Just the increased costs of gasoline, insurance, labor, chemicals, taxes, and utilities must be driving many owners near the point of no return.   Hopefully the tight credit markets are not an issue. 

Forrest Richardson

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Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2008, 10:53:30 PM »
The greatest challenge facing municipal golf is the lack of re-investment made by cities — coupled with a mentality from the upper ranks that forgot most courses contributed profits to cities during the 60s, 70s and 80s...and now, many courses (if not most) are in the red.

The spiraling downward of course conditions and attention to detail is ever-present. San Francisco may be the ultimate example — I have never seen anything like it. It is as if no one is in charge at all.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Cirba

Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2008, 01:27:59 AM »
MPCirba,

It seems like your anger or ire is misdirected.  It is not the role of the manufacturers to protect the game in the form you deem appropriate.  The USGA does have the responsibility of weighing the relatively wide variety of interests and constituencies in golf and making sound judgements to further the long term well-being of the game.  

Lou,

You've clearly got the wrong guy.   I'm probably the least angry person on the planet.

Like Elvis Costello, I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.  ;D

When you tell me that the equipment companies have absolutely no responsibility to try and protect anything beyond shareholder earnings, you're technically right, and sadly also reflect an attitude that is responsible for many of our current problems.

An equipment company like Callaway and/or Taylor-Made or Titleist have absolutely no reason to respect the game or what might be in the long term interests of the game...you're absolutely right.

And, they haven't.  Why should they when management is judged on next quarter profits and when those fail, the executives in charge are given golden parachutes and move on to another "growing" industry, while a "cleaner" comes into the company in spiraling nosedive to make the necessary cuts, do the appropriate restructuring, and figure out another angle that may or may not be related to the original company "mission".

It doesn't matter if it relates to the auto industry, the steel industry, the insurance industry, the dot-coms or the golf industry.   

The funny thing is the constant attacks on those who see fundamental issues with the new "global economy" which seems a lowest common denominator wage/price scenario of cheap, disposable products and stripped-down, touch-tone services.

So, since I've clearly conceded your point and agree that the present economic model is perfect and beyond intelligent discussion or criticism, can we please, please, please just talk about golf courses and golf without insertion of political editorials on the simplest of matters?

I thought our discussions and disagreements in those areas were far more enlightening, engaging, and enjoyable.   

I'll even probably vote for McCain...just please let me agree with Rush and Hannity on only 80% of the issues and hold onto some type of independent, individualistic, intellectual thinking, or should I dare risk being called socialistic, unpatriotic, and even traitorous by failing to tow the complete lobotomous litany of litmus-test laborings of the new "Christian" right?

Isn't that what freedom and choice are supposed to be about?   Or do those things only refer to selection of products?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:54:09 AM by MPCirba »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2008, 11:49:08 AM »

MP,

     So I take it that you don't buy any products from Callaway, Taylor-Made or Titleist?

     Are there any companies you do think are doing the right thing?


Mike_Cirba

Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2008, 11:52:34 AM »

MP,

     So I take it that you don't buy any products from Callaway, Taylor-Made or Titleist?

     Are there any companies you do think are doing the right thing?



Craig,

They are all infallible and beyond reproach, discussion, and debate and they clearly just want us, the golfing public, to be happy.  ;)

I both retract and disavow my earlier wrong-headed and misguided remarks.  ;D



Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2008, 11:53:53 AM »

Resistance is futile...    ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2008, 11:55:17 AM »

Resistance is futile...    ;D

Agreed, and I shop at WalMart incessantly, as well.  ;D ;D ;D

On the plus side, I do hate myself for it. 

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2008, 12:13:59 PM »

Fortunately for me, my wife owns a small store so I'm happy to say I have only visited Wally World twice this year.

I crack up ever time I see someone driving an 'American'  pickup truck assembled in Canada with parts from Mexico with a bumper sticker that says proudly "Buy American!".   Good luck with that.

That aside we all have choices to make. My wife and I choose to support local businesses whenever we can and not chains. Whenever we travel we eat at locally owned establishments and shop at the local stores. Yes, sometimes we pay more or it is not as convenient but thats the choice we make.


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2008, 02:24:37 PM »
Forrest,

I wonder if the problem you point to is very widespread.  San Francisco is a basket case, but even San Diego, hardly an example of county and city operational efficiency, has done/is doing some work to upgrade its facilities.

In Texas at least, there has been quite a bit of activity by various city and county governments to upgrade their facilities.  For example, Dallas has had major renovations of two facilities Tenison-West and Cedar Crest (Tillinghast).  San Antonio is redoing Beckenridge (Tillinghast).  Summeral (sp) County is redoing the original Squaw Valley course (Brauer).  Grand Prairie completed a three year project on a major renovation of the 27-hole Prairie Lakes (Plummer), and I think it is now in the process of redoing the greens on its fine Tangle Ridge course (Brauer).

MPCirba,

I'll take your word for it.  One man's musings is another's tirade or political editorializing.

But Mike, you really should not be putting words in my mouth.

"When you tell me that the equipment companies have absolutely no responsibility to try and protect anything beyond shareholder earnings, you're technically right, and sadly also reflect an attitude that is responsible for many of our current problems.

"An equipment company like Callaway and/or Taylor-Made or Titleist have absolutely no reason to respect the game or what might be in the long term interests of the game...you're absolutely right."

This is what I said.  "It is not the role of the manufacturers to protect the game in the form you deem appropriate.  The USGA does have the responsibility of weighing the relatively wide variety of interests and constituencies in golf and making sound judgements to further the long term well-being of the game."

I am merely suggesting that what you call respect and believe is in the long term interests of the game is hardly established as fact, or for that matter, widely shared opinion.  If it was, I suspect that the USGA would be right there with you.  By the way, my bringing this up is no attack on you, but simply a note to the record providing other plausible explanations why the game is presently in a spot.

Regarding the introduction of politics into these discussions and the personal attacks that sometimes ensue, I never start them and seldom personalize them.  I do try to explain to the best of my ability why things aren't always like they are described by the numerous posters who come to their views of the world from the left.  That I am sometimes a lonely voice here should be welcomed by fair, open-minded folks, and I do get some behind the scenes support.

"I'll even probably vote for McCain...just please let me agree with Rush and Hannity on only 80% of the issues and hold onto some type of independent, individualistic, intellectual thinking, or should I dare risk being called socialistic, unpatriotic, and even traitorous by failing to tow the complete lobotomous litany of litmus-test laborings of the new "Christian" right?"

Mike, I could care less who you vote for or to what degree you concur with the commentators noted above.  But really, do you think that what you wrote does not betray just a tad "the least angry guy in the planet" claim at the beginning of your post?

BTW, I never suggested that equipment companies, corporate America, or the global economy are infallible.  Nor have I claimed that the "the present economic model is perfect and beyond intelligent discussion or criticism".  The only thing I ask in any discussion is the consideration of alternatives which themselves have negative consequences.  Personally, I think the socialist model of tax, regulate, then subsidise as an alternative bears much greater scrutiny given its history.

There is a book by John C. Bogle, the founder of Vanguard family of index funds, "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism" which I think is highly instructive.  It is certainly much closer to where I stand on economic issues and corporate governance than how you've attempted to caricaturize me.

Finally, I'd like to think that this site is big enough to tolerate threads like your Cobb Creek (which, frankly, after a couple of pages totally bores me) and this one.  You may believe that the relevant issues to the well-being of the game reside in the harnessing of technology.  I happen to think that bigger problems lie elsewhere.  What is wrong with allowing the reader to pick and choose where he invests his time?  Given your very high popularity on this site, you have little to worry about.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2008, 03:08:54 PM »
Mike, I'd say a little research into populism is in order.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2008, 03:15:17 PM »
The greatest challenge facing municipal golf is the lack of re-investment made by cities — coupled with a mentality from the upper ranks that forgot most courses contributed profits to cities during the 60s, 70s and 80s...and now, many courses (if not most) are in the red.

The spiraling downward of course conditions and attention to detail is ever-present. San Francisco may be the ultimate example — I have never seen anything like it. It is as if no one is in charge at all.

This sounds like what happened at Huron Hills.  They can't say this is the case with Leslie Park with a hefty investment which may have been a bit misguided.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2008, 06:25:07 PM »
Golf is losing the market share for the entertainment dollar because it is too expensive and exclusive.

Most of my 20 and 30 year-old friends spend their entertainment dollar on anything but golf. It is not easy for me to find other people my age to fill out the foursome. While I can easily find a friend to go watch a baseball game or play games on-line.


I don't see the lack of people in their 20s golfing from where I sit.  I have a lot of friends in that age range, and there's no shortage of 20-somethings who play golf and especially those who have taken it up in the last few years.  I'm really seeing a lot of that amongst women -- I know a lot more female golfers in that age range than I did 10 years ago when I was in that age range myself.

I think part of the reason is that here in Iowa golf courses for a reasonable price can still be found witout it being an all day affair of either driving an hour or two to a more affordable area, or playing a six hour round closer to home because the few affordable courses are packed, which it sounds like is the case for those GCAers living in the NYC or SFO/SJO/LAX regions.

The exclusivity thing you mention is just a side effect of the difficulty of finding an affordable course that isn't packed in those areas.  If you have the money you either join a private club or don't worry about tossing out $200 greens fees.  The 20-somethings are you mention are the least likely to have the money for a private club membership or the $200 greens fees, so its no surprise that there is more uptake of golf around here where it is more affordable and doesn't take all day.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Mike_Cirba

Re: An Interesting Report on Municipal Golf New
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2008, 09:37:49 PM »
Mike, I'd say a little research into populism is in order.

George,

What is there about populism that I need to learn?   

Like most everything else in this life, it's been used in the past for both great good and great evil.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 11:52:58 PM by MPCirba »