Courses that generate "polarized" reactions?

[Chris Cupit]

Chris Cupit,

How about Kilkeel? You and I both hated it but were told by a young local that it ain't so bad...and who knows, we might be the only three people that have ever seen it...

I could maybe be talked into kilkeel being described as "not so bad" for an every day course but to help host the AMateur Championship?

I can't believe it's polarizing in terms of "is it good or bad" as much as it's a question of "how bad is it"

For those in Cincinnatti who don't think Camargo is a top 100 I think I'd just politely ignore what they had to say at least regarding golf for the rest of my life!

I can see where not everyone likes that type of course but to not recognize it as architecturally important is just ignorant.  I hate cubism in art but I can still appreciate that it is significant.

But to think a course is not a top 100 (whatever that is supposed to mean) is a little different from the topic's main focus of courses that generate polarizing opinions. 

Camargo is architecturally important, significant and yes some people may not like it.  Kilkeel is just a pretty ordinary course that never should have helped host a national championship.

[Matthew Hunt]

Chris Cupit,

How about Kilkeel? You and I both hated it but were told by a young local that it ain't so bad...and who knows, we might be the only three people that have ever seen it...

I could maybe be talked into kilkeel being described as "not so bad" for an every day course but to help host the AMateur Championship?

I can't believe it's polarizing in terms of "is it good or bad" as much as it's a question of "how bad is it"

Kilkeel is just a pretty ordinary course that never should have helped host a national championship.

I my opinion of Kilkeel now it is Paris Hilton in a body-bag

I know a fellow who is considering quitting a Membership that lets him play over RCD to join Kilkeel which has dearer stubs and is further away from his house. He told it was "a better course that was better maintained". After a long debate (We were playing RCD #2 in a comp. together) in which told him the merits of RCD and the personal qualities of those who maintained it that very morning(I.e me ) I told him what ever he was on kindly do not take it before golf.

Note: This Guy thinks the K-Club is the best in Ireland 'by Miles'

[W.H. Cosgrove]

If art is supposed to create some sort of emotional response, would golf course architecture be expected to do the same?  T. Doaks list above has some great examples. 

I have always referred to Tobacco Road as 'Golf on Acid.'  Does that mean I don't like the golf course?  I found it mind expanding, but don't think I would want to play it as a steady diet.

While it is polarizing, it does create that response that interesting art does. 

[Chris Cupit]

Wow.  Quit privleges at RCD to play at Kilkeel

That's when you just smile, nod and run like hell the other way!!

And....take solace in the knowledge that one less moron is creating divots on RCD.

[Mark_Fine]

Michael,
Maybe it is just me not understanding or you might want to clarify what you mean by love/hate?  Are you talking about one's personal opinion of the course or their overall rating of the quality of the course?  Maybe you mean both?  If for example someone doesn't love a course (because they are basing their opinon on their own game) does that mean it still can't be great?  Cary makes a good case for this with his comment about Oakmont.  He wanted to walk off because the golf course was too much for him but I trust he is still smart enough to realize the brilliance of the design and would rate it a great golf course.  If not, he would probably hate Pine Valley as well.  At least at Oakmont he wouldn't lose any golf balls    I would hope those rating golf courses look at courses in a broad spectrum and not just based on their own game.  If not, they shouldn't be on a panel.  For their own personal reviews they can do what they want.

Furthermore, "hate" is a strong word.  Tom Doak mentions Cypress Point as a course that some feel is too short.  I hope that means they don't hate it??  I'd be willing to bet that even J.B. Holmes didn't hate Cypress (despite being able to fly the green on #17 with his tee shot)  

Just my thoughts.
Mark

[Michael Dugger]

It's built in the middle of the desert.

Completely fabricated and man made..

and cost a zillion dollars to build....

Shadow Creek is surely polarizing.

[Jim Thompson]

Michael,

In my experience of hearing folks discuss Arcadia, I think the course is divided among a couple groups.

Groups that love Arcadia:
1.  Those who want to tell others what they paid to play/ seakers of snob-appeal (also make up a large part of the Bay Harbor fan club)
2.  Eye candy gluttons.
3. Masochists who love wind and penal bunkers (ironic that these folks are not mostly better players)

Groups that take real issue with Arcadia:
1.  Those who can't take or understand mixed bunker styles;  they often talk about how either the pot or blow outs don't fit)
2.  Those who seek fairness - htae the pot bunkers and the dramatic undulations in the greens and surrounds.
3.  High handicap sprayers that don't seek snob points - dislike the long grasses and the dozer tracks there in
4.  Those who had less than perfect or calm conditions when they were forced to play it with an in-law that didn't pick up the tab...

That cover 80% of the positions.

Others will complain or embrace: routing and construction practices / DEQ violations

Hope that helps,

JT

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

When I was discussing the polarized reactions, generally, I was thinking of courses not that an individual would love AND hate, depending on their golf that day, but courses that enough people would hate to keep them down on the lists from where others believe they should rank.

Cypress Point, being #1, obviously doesn't suffer too much in that regard.  I included it just because of the thread last year where some hotshot told us it was vastly overrated, because the short par-4's and short par-5's were "nothing" holes.

I remember when we were building High Pointe, the construction superintendent and I spoke of building a course that 50% of people would hate and 50% would love -- the VERY DEFINITION of polarizing.  Unfortunately, we probably came closer than we should have.    You can't please all of the people all of the time, and you shouldn't try -- but pissing off half the people will not do much for you in the rankings world, and it's not a great business plan unless you live in a large market.

[Matthew Mollica]

As one or two suggested above,

Carnoustie seems to generate lots of polar opinions.

Some love it as a stern test, and see subtlety there.

Some hate it and describe it as flat and boring.

MM

[wsmorrison]

Around Philadelphia, it seems that Huntingdon Valley and Aronimink are the two that generate the most polarized reactions.  Regarding Huntingdon Valley, a lot of players complain that the ball striking tests are particularly difficult including uneven stances, hitting a fade off a draw lie or a draw off of a fade lie.  The difficult C-9, perhaps the hardest 9-holes in the district, has fewer admirers than complainers, especially with the 2nd hole where you hit 4 or 5-iron followed by 3 or 5-wood.

As for Aronimink, despite its great greens, there are many that like the course but more that don't.  The par 4s are generally straight with flanking fairway bunkers.  They sort of blur into one another.  There are some great holes, but the collection as a whole doesn't work very well.

As for Merion East, there is also a decided split.   Chip Gaskins and everyone else 

[Sean_A]

Without a doubt the course which suffers from love/hate is The Road.  I can fully understand why some folks wouldn't buy into the the entire deal because it does have serious faults which include being too wet, a nasty walk (especially considering much of it can be fixed) and too much area given over to waste bunkers.  The first two are serious faults in my book and the third is somewhat mitigated by wide fairways.  However, the first time I played it there was nothing but a smile on my face.  I couldn't wait to see what was coming next.  Just for its sheer ability to make me smile I can overlook the shortcomings enough to want to play The Road every time I near Pinehurst - this is the course I want to book first.  Having said that, I wouldn't in a million years dream of joining it as my club.  The two main drawbacks would grate on me way too much. 

Ciao   

[jeffwarne]

It would seem to me that the clear cut winner would have to be The Bridge.

A full membership with most recent memberships going for $1,000,000 +(in a small geographic area where FOUR new high end teriffic courses have been built in the past 8 years)
+ guests and visiting professionals who comments and thank you notes consistently declare it one of their finest experiences ever.....
Clearly some people like/love it.

and then you look at some of the older threads on this site and the venom that is spewed makes it a shoe in for the most polarizing course ever.

[Chip Gaskins]

As for Merion East, there is also a decided split.   Chip Gaskins and everyone else 

Nice one, I call like I see em' 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

As a midhandicapper I hated Inniscrone (a well liked course here) not because it was too long or too short or too wild, but just too demanding. While there were some cool holes there, nearly all of them (it seemed!) had staked off environmental areas that prevented recovery from the bad shots that an 11 handicap will make over the course of a round. I spent half the day taking drops.

Jeff, that's funny you say that; I played Inniscrone with Joe Bausch, at his recommendation, in November and enjoyed it.  It didn't seem all that bad to me; granted, 17 wasn't easy, but I didn't think it was as unreasonable as many say it is.  However, I also like Lederach, and that's put me in the hot seat many times at a dinner table, with many who play it not liking it. 

I could see, also as an 11 (not playing to it at the moment) that it could be very, very hard; however, I felt that way about French Creek.  But that could be because I played poorly there, and that colored my point of view. 

[Chip Gaskins]

and too much area given over to waste bunkers. 

Sean-

What did you mean by this?  There are too many waste areas on the course?

I love Tobacco Road and love to hear why others don't (I would blow up the first tee shot and the second shot to nine (same sand dune actually))

Chip-

[M. Shea Sweeney]

and too much area given over to waste bunkers. 

 (I would blow up the first tee shot and the second shot to nine (same sand dune actually))

Chip-

Yikes, Chip---those are two of my favorite shots. How come you want to blow em up?

[Chip Gaskins]

i just think that first tee shot is a little too over the top and it is the one thing that everyone seems to remember and talk about  the course.  if that first reaction was a little more muted i think the course wouldn't be painted with the "too over the top" brush as often.  and from a playability standpoint, if you hit the ball up on those hills you almost always find it, but trying to hit it can be hazardous for your health.

as for the second shot into nine...i just think it is "too" up hill.  either raise the fairway a little or make the green bigger.

otherwise i love every minute of golf on that course.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Chip-

I will be the first to say that alot of things about Tobacco are 'over the top'

However, these 2 shots make up what I like about the golf course. Your reasons for disliking the shots make me think one thing; your playing the wrong set of tees.

I play the back tees and clear the hills on the first tee shot with plenty of room to spare, and so do most of the guys I play with. However with that said those "Sand Dunes" provide great visual indimidation for the long hitter. The dunes quickly put some doubt in the players head about how confident they really are with that shot. So, If you are playing the right set of tees, I feel this shot should play exactly how it is intended to be played.

As for the approach to 9--Again I play the back tees, and I'm thinking I've had less than 8 iron everytime. I absolutley love this approach. One-I love hitting to a blind green, nothing like walking 100 yards to finally see your ball is in miller-time. Two-There is just something about uphill wedge shots that put players into fits-- So, with that said I would assume if your playing the right Tee's you will have no problem handling this shot.

[Gene Greco]

     Pinehurst #2 is my selection.

A number of people on this discussion board worship the place and an equal number want to blow it up.

[Sean_A]

and too much area given over to waste bunkers. 

Sean-

What did you mean by this?  There are too many waste areas on the course?


I love Tobacco Road and love to hear why others don't (I would blow up the first tee shot and the second shot to nine (same sand dune actually))

Chip-

Chip

There is an awful lot of waste area about the place.  I always think of waste area as too indiscriminant a hazard and it seems to me that it replaces water in a modern sense.  I am not overly keen.  I would rather see well placed bunkers which make the golfer have to make a choice. 

I think the point of many of the shots is that they are meant to LOOK ott, but in fact are not.  I don't mind the opening shot at The Road, its the second which doesn't do anything for me. 

There are a few awkward moments on the course, but I think #9 to be one of the best holes on the course.  Its one of the few that looks a severe shot and is a severe shot.  You get what you see. 

The shots which perplex me are

the second to #1

the drive for #2 - I think the hole would be better without the forced carry or such a long forced carry - if they insist on the forced carry then the trees on the other side of the fairway should be taken out.

#8 - make the back right of the green accesible with the putter from the front bottom. 

#11 - the front left can't be putt to the front right - jeepers, I guy takes on the risk of carrying the chasm and controlling the distance to this shallow green and can end up with no reward - thats hard cheese I can do without but in the variety I spose one of these type situations can stay if only for variety sake - given our culture of not chipping on greens I still think this is terribly clever

#12 - the trees beyond the right bunker which block a recovery

#13 - The drive is a mess - they should take out the trees to the right and create a par 4 imo - it would be tough, but the options would truly open for a lot more players

#15 - the left side of the green is way too severe to hit and hold with any club

#17 - not a bad hole, but I really dislike the concept of hitting then climbing back up to hit from practically the same spot for 18 - the hole isn't that good for its awkwardness

#18 - the drive is too severe - one must be long and straight for a view of what is a very difficult approach anyway - I don't mind it so much now, but in years to come I could see hating that hole and that isn't a good way to finish the round

All this sounds very critical, but somehow The Road pulls it off pretty well and that is all down the adventure of the design.  I would rather see a bold design like The Road created with all its  faults then not.  I think archies can learn a lot from The Road

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

Sean - A pretty good analysis of TR. I agree with most of your comments, but especially those on #18. The tee shot is too severe for what you face for your second... another blind shot to a green with a large drop off area to the left. I love TR, but this combination of shots had me scratching my head the first time around. I will have to admit, however, subsequent trips around the course have softened a good number of my objections.

[Adam Russell]

Jsut generally, I think it is a great idea for architecture to have as many polarizing golf courses possible. I personally have no need to play a golf course where every single person who plays there loves it- that to me is the definition of a bland golf course, regardless of ranking or stature. Strantz courses are such fun for that reason; good or bad, you'll always talk about them. I wish archies would design with more with this very idea in mind.

[Norbert P]

Carne is a course that seems to divide people.

  Unfathomable to me why anyone would be disappointed, but I have heard it here.  Perhaps a touch of Redbreast should be doled out prior to a round, eh?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

NGLA, TOC and Shadow Creek come to mind.

There seems to be a love/hate perspective from many golfers with respect to these courses.

[Tim Leahy]

How about Torrey Pines South? It seems there are almost as many lovers as haters, and this will probably continue after this years Open.