Courses that generate "polarized" reactions?

[Michael Whitaker]

On another thread Brad Klein correctly pointed out that most of Mike Strantz's courses generate "polarized" reactions from golfers... and panel raters. Some people love them, others not so much. As a result, his courses are not ranked in many of the national lists (or not very high).

I think a lot of Pete Dye course rankings suffer in the same way because of the Love/Hate divide. The Ocean Course at Kiawah is an example that comes to mind.

What other really good courses suffer in the ratings from this Love/Hate effect? Is it just the ones that stretch the design envelope which generate this type reaction?

 

[Bob Jenkins]

Michael,

I suspect RTJ2 may get on the list. I see Chambers Bay as an instant "love" and a lot of "not so much" for his other stuff. In the almost 2 years I have been on this site there has not been much RTJ 2 talk. Other than Spanish Bay where is played a role with Tom Watson and Sandy Tatum, and Chateau Whistler, which is a fun course built for the most part on the side of a mountain, I have not had a lot of exposure to his work. There is nothing of his work that I recall other than Chambers Bay that has received a lot of love.

Bob J

[Chris Cupit]

While I love it, many Americans simply don't "get" St. Andrews.  I don't think Sam Snead was a particular fan back in the 50's.

Black Creek in Chattanooga is another course I really enjoyed and yet some I played with hated the look and feel.

On this website Muirfield is extolled for its great bunkering and I am one that was completely underwhelmed by it--maybe it is not a good example of polarizing since I appreciate that it is a good course with a routing that was unique for its time--just didn't blow my socks off!

I have never played Tobacco Road but it seems  to generate the polarizing views you speak of.

[Jim Thompson]

Michael,

In Western Michigan the three most polarizing course I can think of are Point of Woods, Arcadia Bluffs, and the Thoroughbred at Double J resort.  These three courses result in more nineteenth hole arguments than any others and people are very passionate and very extreme in their positions.  I’ve never met a player who came down in the middle over these three.

Cheers!

JT

[Jack_Marr]

Carne is a course that seems to divide people.

[JESII]

Continuing the Stranz theme...Royal New Kent is awfully polarizing...I loved it, but would never walk it...must add 100% to the course yardage if you were to walk.



Chris Cupit,

How about Kilkeel? You and I both hated it but were told by a young local that it ain't so bad...and who knows, we might be the only three people that have ever seen it...



I think Huntingdon Valley generates a decent pool of negative reviews and is also completely loved by many.

[rjsimper]

I think TOC is at the top of this list with everything else being graded on a different scale.  It's the only course I've heard from multiple people called the ugliest place on earth as well as the most beautiful think they've ever seen.

[cary lichtenstein]

I'll add:

Tot Hill Farm by Strantz-I enjoyed it more as an example of the extreme than as a purist golf experience and would recommend it on that basis

Mission Inn near Orlando-I like that alot, although many would probably not because of the topography, very few flat lies, lots of downhills and uphill extremes and 17 is one great hole but you have to negotiate a couple of trees in the middle of the fairway and club selection is critical.

Oakmont-perhaps this one is only me, but my one round I wanted to leave the course, it was just so penalizing, but I must be in the miniority

Pinehurst #2-Once again was enuf for me, much ado about the extremes of  grinding on and around the greens.

Seminole-nice course but top 10 material? I just never got it, if I were blindfolded and played it I would have thought it was a good muni...shows how ignorant I must be

Prince in Hawaii-I liked it alot, again I'm in the minority but I like target golf

Lakota Canyon-I love it but I got handed my head on that one before

[Chip Gaskins]

Maidstone might qualify. 

Definitely Strantz courses.

[Tom_Doak]

There are lots of courses which generate polarized reactions.  They fall into different categories:

Too short, according to low-handicaps:  North Berwick, Shoreacres, Cypress Point, Maidstone, etc.

Too long and boring, according to mid-handicaps:  Medinah, Carnoustie, etc.

Too wild, for those seeking fairness:  Lost Dunes, Tobacco Road, Kingsley, etc.

Too unconventional for some, no matter how cool they are:  Rye, Painswick, etc.

Too dependent on carts:  Kapalua Plantation, Stone Eagle, etc.


I suspect that Strantz's work hits two or three of these extremes.  Some find it all too wild.  The low-handicaps who do like his work tend to prefer the ones like Royal New Kent, which fits into the "too long to be that wild" category for me, not to mention that it's unwalkable.  I prefer Tobacco Road or Caledonia, but some low-handicaps will find them too short to show off their power.  In the political world, you would say that he's alienated too many special-interest groups.

[JeffTodd]

As a midhandicapper I hated Inniscrone (a well liked course here) not because it was too long or too short or too wild, but just too demanding. While there were some cool holes there, nearly all of them (it seemed!) had staked off environmental areas that prevented recovery from the bad shots that an 11 handicap will make over the course of a round. I spent half the day taking drops.

[Brian Cenci]

Michael,

In Western Michigan the three most polarizing course I can think of are Point of Woods, Arcadia Bluffs, and the Thoroughbred at Double J resort.  These three courses result in more nineteenth hole arguments than any others and people are very passionate and very extreme in their positions.  I’ve never met a player who came down in the middle over these three.

Cheers!

JT

Jim,
     I agree with you regarding Arcadia.  Some people love it (like me) and some people think it's not worthy of mentioning in the top public courses in the state (many on this site).
     The same goes for Thoroughbred, but on a smaller scale.  I generally liked it, although a few weird holes, but I know others who hate it.
     Another course I would throw in the mix for love/hate in Michigan would be Greywalls and also Eagle Eye.
     I haven't had the chance to play Point O'Woods.


-Brian

[PThomas]

Pebble!!?

[Brian Cenci]

To throw a few more into the mix for love/hate I would say for me personally would be Oakland Hills (some very blah holes out there), Lawsonia Links (don't see the fasination people have with the course), Whistling - Irish course (I know some hate it but I happened to like it) and Pinehurst No. 2 (other than the greens its pretty straightforward course).

-Brian

[Michael Whitaker]

While I love it, many Americans simply don't "get" St. Andrews.  I don't think Sam Snead was a particular fan back in the 50's.

Chris - I have witnessed the "polarizing" effect of St Andrews with a few friends of mine. They visited St Andrews a few years back and thought is was a "goat track." They loved the experience... but had no real interest in going back. On the other hand, they loved Carnoustie and North Berwick, so they're not competely whacked!

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael,

In Western Michigan the three most polarizing course I can think of are Point of Woods, Arcadia Bluffs, and the Thoroughbred at Double J resort.  These three courses result in more nineteenth hole arguments than any others and people are very passionate and very extreme in their positions.  I’ve never met a player who came down in the middle over these three.

Cheers!

JT

Jim - What is it about Arcadia Bluffs that is so polarizing? I have several golfing friends in Michigan and have not heard them make negative comments on AB.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Glancing over responses above, I didn't see TPC Sawgrass mentioned. This is a polarizing golf course design, for sure. Particularly the original version.

[Buck Wolter]

Michael,

In Western Michigan the three most polarizing course I can think of are Point of Woods, Arcadia Bluffs, and the Thoroughbred at Double J resort.  These three courses result in more nineteenth hole arguments than any others and people are very passionate and very extreme in their positions.  I’ve never met a player who came down in the middle over these three.

Cheers!

JT

Jim - What is it about Arcadia Bluffs that is so polarizing? I have several golfing friends in Michigan and have not heard them make negative comments on AB.

Michael -- Search Arcadia Bluffs and you'll see it hotly debated in several threads. I seem to remember Tom Doak comparing it to Royal New Kent some time back so it's probably not surprising they are both in this group.

[Doug Ralston]

Michael,

In Western Michigan the three most polarizing course I can think of are Point of Woods, Arcadia Bluffs, and the Thoroughbred at Double J resort.  These three courses result in more nineteenth hole arguments than any others and people are very passionate and very extreme in their positions.  I’ve never met a player who came down in the middle over these three.

Cheers!

JT

Jim,
     I agree with you regarding Arcadia.  Some people love it (like me) and some people think it's not worthy of mentioning in the top public courses in the state (many on this site).
     The same goes for Thoroughbred, but on a smaller scale.  I generally liked it, although a few weird holes, but I know others who hate it.
     Another course I would throw in the mix for love/hate in Michigan would be Greywalls and also Eagle Eye.
     I haven't had the chance to play Point O'Woods.


-Brian

Brian;

Have you known anyone who actually played Eagle Eye and hated it? I know it is very 'manufactured', and therefor prejudged, but once played, surely the quality of the golf captures most any player.

Doug

[Michael Whitaker]

There are lots of courses which generate polarized reactions.  They fall into different categories:

Too short, according to low-handicaps:  North Berwick, Shoreacres, Cypress Point, Maidstone, etc.

Too long and boring, according to mid-handicaps:  Medinah, Carnoustie, etc.

Too wild, for those seeking fairness:  Lost Dunes, Tobacco Road, Kingsley, etc.

Too unconventional for some, no matter how cool they are:  Rye, Painswick, etc.

Too dependent on carts:  Kapalua Plantation, Stone Eagle, etc.


I suspect that Strantz's work hits two or three of these extremes.  Some find it all too wild.  The low-handicaps who do like his work tend to prefer the ones like Royal New Kent, which fits into the "too long to be that wild" category for me, not to mention that it's unwalkable.  I prefer Tobacco Road or Caledonia, but some low-handicaps will find them too short to show off their power.  In the political world, you would say that he's alienated too many special-interest groups.

Tom - There are several GREAT courses in your list... and others have been mentioned above... so, being a polarizing course is not necessarily a negative trait!

What strikes me is that I had modern courses in mind when I started this thread. But, obviously, there are lots of older courses that generate the love/hate response.

I know my following statement is a gross generalization, but... most of the people I know who are regularly "polarized" by golf courses have a lack of adventure or imagination. They always seem to be looking for something to complain about, instead of having an open mind and trying to appreciate the difference or challenge that is presented to them.

My first visit to Tobacco Road was with a group of 16. It was AMAZING listening to the wild differences in opinion of the guys coming off the 18th green.

[Steve Kline]

The first time I played Tobacco Road I thought it was little hokey with huge tiers on the greens. But after several more plays I really like it. Lots of strategy off the tee. Big hitters can be suckered into some really dumb shots and end up dead. Tot Hill Farm though is a little too extreme - not the greens so much as the terrain itself.

In Cincinnati - I know many who cannot understand how in the world Camargo ranks in the top 100.

[Dan Moore]

Erin Hills may become the poster child for this although most who have played it have come away with high regard even if of the opinion its not perfect.  But which category would it fall in--too wild, too long, too unconventioanl--all of the above?  How many changes will be made before the USGA shows its love? 

I agree Medina polarizes, but isn't that due to its absence of variety and lack of width as much as its length?

Brian,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but the fact is the vast, vast majority of people are not polarized by Lawsonia including GW raters who give it very high marks.   Some however feel Lawsonia may be in danger of falling into the too short category at some point. 

[J_ Crisham]

Erin Hills is definitely of the love it or hate it variety. The number of blind shots and contrived features such as the Dell and the Biarritz green were just a few of the disappointments I experienced. My guess is that the course you play now will be changed before a tour event ie; Open is played. It is a very pretty piece of property and does have some strong holes just not a place I would rush back to play.

[John Kirk]

I wouldn't call my reaction to Arcadia Bluffs a love/hate thing.  It is exceptional in many ways.  I just didn't feel it deserved to be in the very upper echelon of course rankings.  It's ranked in the top 60 in Golf Digest, and somewhere in the top 40-50 of Golfweek's moderns.  For me it is a Doak 6, or for those of you who read my iPod 5-star system, a 3 star course, which means I like it.

Stone Eagle is the polarizer in the Coachella Valley.  It's too wild for some of the old folks down there, who like their greens flatter.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael W:

Great question.

Polarization is a term that certain people throw into the mixture because it likely deals with whether their respective game works in concert with the course(s) in question. Often times -- those who are polarized may form such thoughts simply through the playing of only one round.

I don't find anything polarizing concerning the "fairness" issue with Lost Dunes, Tobacco Road or Kingsley as Tom Doak mentioned in his post. Generally, you do have certain folks who will rationalize their thumbs up / down on a given course on how they believe that respective course fits or doesn't fit their game that day.

Steve Kline:

Would like to know a bit more details on why you don't see Camargo as a top 100 course? Have you played other Raynor designs? If so - do any impress you and why would any of those be beyond the likes of Camargo in you book. Thanks ...