[Michael Dugger]

Hey everyone, my buddy is heading to the Cincinnati region of the U.S. and will be looking for a game on the best course he can play.

I did a basic search and came across two names, Shakers Run and TPC River Bend.

Any input???  Are these places any good?  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Doug Ralston]

If you can get connections, and TPC is private so perhaps you do, obviously Camargo and Coldstream are both nice. If public courses are your bill of fare, I would drive a little to Buck Point [P B Dye], just over in Indiana. Also worth playing in the area are Stonelick Hills [owner!], Lassing Pointe [Hurdzan], Elk Run [Greg Norman] and Aston Oaks [Nicklaus].

Doug

[Steve Kline]

I like Shaker run - but I would make sure I play the original 18. The nine is bland. Lassing Pointe is pretty far from North Cincinnati. Stonelick Hills is interesting, but every time I've played it conditioning has been a real issue. It's owner designed. Unless your are a billy goat (like me) it's generally unwalkable. Elks Runs is pretty good.

As for private - obviously Camargo is the first choice and then Coldstrem - neither are in north Cincinnati. The Heritage Club in north Cincinnati is nice. And if you're in north Cincy, Dayon is not far, so I would try to get on NCR South, and I have heard Moraine C.C. is good too.

[Michael Dugger]

thanks a lot fellas.

[JLahrman]

Decent public courses north of Cincinnati, meaning north of 275:

Weatherwax in Middletown is a good 36 hole layout.  The guys I usually play with are a mix from Dayton and Cincinnati and this has been a good place for us to meet.

Walden Ponds is a Hurzdan CCFAD that I liked much better than I thought I would.

Shaker is OK but I find it overrated.  I have only played it a couple of times.

Within the 275 belt, but still northern Cincinnati, I've always enjoyed playing at Sharon Woods.  It's a steal for the money, probably still in the $25 range to walk (and I think Weatherwax is only about $30).

Here is a complete list of public courses:

http://www.cincinnatiusa.com/Attractions/bycat.asp?AttCatID=13

[Chris_Blakely]

Not sure how far outside of Cincinnati your friend wants to go, but the courses I would recommend are:

Stonlick Hills (Batavia, OH)

Indian Ridge GC (Oxford, OH good course on a rolling piece of property - but lots of turf problems recently)

Buck Point GC (Liberty, IN) is a blast to play, quite hilly and worth the trip

Grand Victoria (Rising Sun, IN) Tim Liddy casino course that is quite good


As for Aston Oaks GC, if your friend likes lots and lots of houses then play Aston Oaks, otherwise there are much, much better courses to be played.  Aston Oaks was done by Nicklaus group and not Nicklaus himseld - not that that matters.

[Doug Ralston]

Chris;

The houses at Aston Oaks are only in play on one hole, and they caution you there. Yes, it is a subdivision course, but I think a fun layout for all that.

I agree with you that Buck Point is a hidden gem.

Overall, Cincinnati is poor on quality public courses for a city it's size. Thus do I golf in Kentucky a lot.

Doug

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris;

The houses at Aston Oaks are only in play on one hole, and they caution you there. Yes, it is a subdivision course, but I think a fun layout for all that.

I agree with you that Buck Point is a hidden gem.

Overall, Cincinnati is poor on quality public courses for a city it's size. Thus do I golf in Kentucky a lot.

Doug

with the layout).


Ashton Oaks has some fun elevation changes and some views of the Ohio river on one hole, but while the subdivions are not in play on all the holes, you ARE AWARE 100% that they are all around you.  I would hope you would agree that there are better courses in the area to play - Stonelick Hills being one of them.

Chris

[Jesse Jones]

Your best bet is NCR.
As a former Warren County resident I can report that Buck Point is a hell of a drive away.
TPC Rivers Bend is decent and it's not that difficult to get on if you know a TPC member who can call ahead for you.
Outside of those two..
Play Shaker Run..
The best muni..Sharon Woods..by a mile..

[Doug Ralston]

Chris;

I agree that Stonelick Hills is really good. The man who designed/owns it is a unique character too. Definitely worth a play.

Jesse;

Buck Point is about an hour from Cincinnati. I really like it, the back nine especially has some nice holes. I guess it depends on how far Michael's friend is willing to travel, and his access to such private courses as Camargo.

Doug

[Steve Kline]

I played with the guy who owns Stonelick in an outing (we use the same accounting firm). I asked him, "So you just woke up won morning and decided you wanted to build a golf course?" He said, "Yes." Then I said, "Your wife had no problem with that?" He said, "Nope."

It must be nice.

[Jim Sweeney]

You have lots of good advice but I'll add Hamilton Elks to the list- a D. Ross course that is a little clumsy in spots but a good piece of property and fun.
Other than Sharon Woods I think Lassing Point is an excellent choice. About 45 minutes south of the I-275 intersection with either I-75 or 71.

Elks Run is excellent and is just as far from the above mentioned reference points as is Lassing. I am not as much a fan or Stonelick as others here but it is not a bad choice if it is the choice you have.

[Criss Titschinger]

Indian Ridge GC (Oxford, OH good course on a rolling piece of property - but lots of turf problems recently)

Buck Point GC (Liberty, IN) is a blast to play, quite hilly and worth the trip

Having gone to Miami University, I've played these courses many times.  Indian Ridge had major turf issues last year because of the drought.  Both of their main lakes were bone dry by late August and they don't bring in outside water.  I'm going up to Miami for a hockey game on Friday and I'll give a report from what I see.   This is/was my home course and it was sad to see it deteriorated so badly when I had my wedding reception there last fall.  I hope they don't need to close and re-seed.  Not the toughest layout, but certainly enjoyable.

Buck Point I always thought had big time potential.  The course hadn't got a chance to properly grow in while I was there.  I played the course two years ago and thought while improving, there was more that could be done.  I understand they got a new super since I played, and I can't wait to get back out there and see the results.  Should I be worried that their Web site isn't up anymore?

As others have said, if you have access, do Camargo, Coldstream, Moraine, NCR, or Miami Valley.  Otherwise, the courses listed already are good.

[John Pflum]

My $.02.

Buck Point is a long way to go from Northern Cincinnati.  Shaker Run will probably be your best be to play a high profile course but, as others have said, make sure you play the original 18.  Also, you can forget about walking at Shaker.  They aren't very keen on that. 

Sharon Woods is good as is Blue Ash (a Jack Kidwell course) though I haven't been there for a couple of years so I can't comment on the conditions. 

Elks Run is good but they are also picky about walkers. 

Stonelick Hills is a lot of fun and they are kind to walkers but there are a couple of LONG green-to-tee hikes. 

I played the TPC a couple of times and got a definite "blah" feeling from it. 

If you have connections I'd also add Maketewah (Donald Ross) to your list of possibilities. 

[JLahrman]

Blue Ash is OK but it has started to feel very clausterphobic over the years, as has Glenview and The Vineyard...

[John Pflum]

I assume you are talking about tree growth?  O'Bannon cleared out a whole bunch of trees the last few years and that had made a big difference -- and improvement. 

I have to admit the last time I played the Vineyard I was very disappointed.  Granted, we had that terrible heat wave last summer and no rain but the conditions were pretty lousy.  Hopefully things will turn around this year.  Normally that course is in tip top shape. 

[JLahrman]

Yes, too much tree growth.

I'm just not a fan of The Vineyard.  I like slopey greens, but there are too many goofy tiered greens there.  Off the top of my head - the infamous triple-tiered #4, #5, #12, #13, and #17?  #9 is the best hole on that course by a mile, I also like #14, but apart from that hard to find much I like at that place.

John, are you a member at O'Bannon?  You seem to be out there a lot.  That's where I played home matches in high school.

[John Pflum]

Not to argue but only #4 and #13 are three tierd green but I certainly see your point.  The other ones are two tiers with VERY severe "sudden slopes" between the different levels (especially #5). 

I really enjoy the Vineyard.  1. It's about 5 minutes from my house.  2.  They don't b*tch about walkers (see some of my previous comments on Shaker Run).  3.  I think that #12-15 is a great series of holes.  4.  18 always kicks my butt. 

Why do you think #9 is the best hole on the course? 

My father is a member at O'Bannon.  They have a very open guest policy so I end up playing there a lot.  I very much like O'Bannon.  If I was going to join an affordable course in town that would be near the top of my list along with Terrace Park.  Caveat: I don't know the fees at Terrace Park so it might not fit into that "affordable" category. 

[Steve Kline]

Terrace Park has some deals going on right now so it is affordable. I grew up playing there and had a junior membership there for a few years. I don't think I would ever join there again though because the members were always wanting to pump money into a failing clubhouse and food/service operation. Too bad, because the course is nice, in good shape, easy to walk, and is great for beginners and kids (like my wife and son). Also, there aren't really any low handicaps left there so I wouldn't have much of a game with anybody.

[JLahrman]

Right John, I only meant to say that #4 is the triple tiered green at The Vineyard.  I forgot about 13, I only remembered two tiers.  More than one tier is unnecessary at that hole, since it's about 215 from the back tees if I remember right.  I don't know why I like 9, just seems to be a really good hole.  I agree that 12-15 is a good stretch, except for the tiers on 12 and 13.  14 is probably my second favorite hole on the course.

I haven't played at Terrace Park in quite awhile, probably not since they started changing around approximately holes 3-7.  How do those holes play now?

[Tom Yost]

Having gone to Miami University ...

What about the course at Hueston Woods State Park?  Pretty nice layout but for one "do-or-die"  200+ yd par 3 with all carry over water.

Tom

[John Pflum]

Right John, I only meant to say that #4 is the triple tiered green at The Vineyard.  I forgot about 13, I only remembered two tiers.  More than one tier is unnecessary at that hole, since it's about 215 from the back tees if I remember right.  I don't know why I like 9, just seems to be a really good hole.  I agree that 12-15 is a good stretch, except for the tiers on 12 and 13.  14 is probably my second favorite hole on the course.

I haven't played at Terrace Park in quite awhile, probably not since they started changing around approximately holes 3-7.  How do those holes play now?

I love Vineyard #14 as well.  It is probably my favorite hole on the course.

Terrace Park:  It's been a while since I've played there but let me see if I can remember. 
  #3 -- Still pretty much the same hole.  I don't remember too many changes.
  #4 -- now a par three about 140-150 yards. 
  #5 -- par 4?  Don't remember too many changes except shortening it to fit the par three in.
  #6 -- par 5 with a nice looking approach to the green.  There is also a big pond short and left of the green now.  Over the green is OB -- well, the Little Miami River. 
  #7 -- still that long par three 190 yards or so? 

[JLahrman]

Terrace Park:  It's been a while since I've played there but let me see if I can remember. 
  #3 -- Still pretty much the same hole.  I don't remember too many changes.
  #4 -- now a par three about 140-150 yards. 
  #5 -- par 4?  Don't remember too many changes except shortening it to fit the par three in.
  #6 -- par 5 with a nice looking approach to the green.  There is also a big pond short and left of the green now.  Over the green is OB -- well, the Little Miami River. 
  #7 -- still that long par three 190 yards or so? 

So let me see if I've got this straight:

- They built a new green for the current #4.
- They kept the old #5 green but it's been shortened to a par 4
- They kept the old #6 tee, but moved the green back into that corner of the property by the river
- #3 and #7 are unchanged.

[John Pflum]

Yes -- that is my recollection.  Why don't you get us a tee time there so we can verify it?  :-)

[Steve Kline]

Here are the changes made to Terrace Park:

#3 - had a lake added to right of the green to help filter sewage (I think that was the reason)
#4 - still a short par 4 (317 yards from the back tee); a couple of fairway bunkers had been added over the years around the 80 to 110 yard mark
#5 - brand new par 3; about 150 yards from the regular tee and 175 yards from the back tee. There is a lake front left. On the right the green is shaped like a saddle - low in front, high in middle, low in back; the left side is basically a flat tier up higher than the saddle. I don't particularly like this hole. The green is totally out of character with all the old holes and adding a lake seemed gimmicky and done to create a signature hole look.
#6 - the old #5 (a par 5 where you had to drive around the large old sycamore tree) is now a par 4 of approximately 390-400 yards. The new tee is under the sycamore tree. There is a cross bunker just past the 150 yard marker so unless you can bomb it you need to lay up short of it.
#7 - formerly a 400-420 yard par 4 is now a par 5. The tee is in the same spot but the green was pushed back 70 to 80 yards. The green is almost all the way back to where the two rivers meet. The trees have been cleared behind the green so you can see the two rivers converge and get somewhat of a skyline green effect. Also the prevailing wind is into you on that hole so the wind shoots through that gap and can really cause the golfer problems. Again I don't like the green as it seems out of character with the old holes.
#9 - used to be the old number 8 - about a 360-380 yard par four with tee shot going up over a ridge. It is still a par 4 but is not 420-450 yards. The green was almost pushed back to where the old 9th tee was.

The old ninth hole (a par 3 of 165 yards and probably my favorite par 3 on the course) is now gone. The driving range was expanded and a chipping practice facility where put in its place.

What is now #8 (a relatively long par 3) and #17 have also had new greens built. #8's green is basically the same while 17's is much different. Again it doesn't fit with the old style of the course. So, now there are like 3-5 greens don't seem to mesh with the style of the rest of the holes.

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