Seminole Last Monday

« **on:** March 04, 2008, 09:46:39 AM »

I was watching the Golf Channel last night and they showed a minute or two of Seminole, where there had been a pro am event on Monday with quite a few touring pros including Els and Couples. Apparently, this something special as many of the guys who played were not at the Honda.

Did anyone happen to either play in the event or see it, and if so, what were the conditions like and how was the scoring? Was the course nice and firm and were the pros able to overpower the course?

« **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2008, 01:27:50 PM »

Seminole has a long history of hosting pros in sometime big money games and/or tournaments. I'm sure Mucci or Tom Paul can comment more.

« **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2008, 01:42:32 PM »

Directly I have no more contact with Seminole (in other words I don't go there anymore) but I do know a ton of people from the club and a number of them who play in that rejuvenated Seminole pro-am, and I'll be happy to ask them how the pro contingent fared on the course this time.

My neighbor plays in it and the last story making the circuit in that tourney a few years ago was when Hank Kuehne took his drive right at the 16th green and was putting for eagle. That sure got everyone's attention. That neighbor of mine was in his group.

I think it says a lot for Seminole, the course and the club that they can get such a high quality contingent of pros to come and play for nothing. The old pro-am back in the 1950s and such that got all the best pros was basically a calcutta and a huge one and that got everyone's interest.

My Dad was with Hogan or Snead back then and they won the calcutta one year. Mrs Dodge or Mrs Grace or some bigtime name dowager like that owed Dad something like 10 grand for that but he never heard from her. So he wrote her and she sent him a check for $10 grand but she forgot to sign it. So he sent it back asking her if she's mind signing it. I don't believe he heard back from her.

« **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2008, 07:21:19 PM »

TE Paul,

In reading the book "The Match", a reference is made to a scandal at Deepdale. I gather this had something to do with amateur rules, and I am speculating that perhaps some expenses were paid to amateurs. Maybe it involved a calcutta. Do you know any details?

I understand that George Coleman was an important member at Seminole. He also belonged to San Francisco GC, Cypress Point, and Augusta National. Can there be a better collection of places to call home? Did your dad talk about Mr. Coleman? Any good stories? Sounds like he was a major player in that era, but remained relatively anonymous.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2008, 07:35:54 PM »

lou, i recall seeing an old seminole scorecard that had claude harmon defeating ben hogan by a stroke and george coleman by three strokes. i don't recall the fourth individual's name but he was about eight to nine strokes behind harmon. i believe harmon posted a 69 or 70.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2008, 08:29:57 PM »

James,

Interesting. When I used the term "major player" I meant as a mover and shaker in the national golf scene. I didn't realize he literally played the game of golf at such a high level. Suppose they all played from the same tees?

« **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2008, 09:04:15 PM »

Lou,

I can recall reading a story about the Deepdale calcutta.......I believe there was an inflation of handicaps by an outside team......the bidding got out of hand and the take was pretty big...when they found out ringers had infiltrated their event, they were not happy...I believe the ringer was eventually black balled at every club he tried to play

Coleman was an Oklahoma State champ and played in the British, French and Swiss am also......dont forget he was a member at Blind Brook, Castle Pines and Jupiter Island....was the longest serving member at Cypress, 60 yrs

« **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2008, 10:37:28 AM »

I had the good fortune to caddy at the event on Monday. The conditions in the morning were brutal for scoring with the wind out of the South East blowing at (I'm guessing) 20 to 30 mph. I believe the wind dropped in the afternoon and the winners came from pm starting times.

The course was in fine condition with the greens rolling like glass.

The field is quite unbelievable for a 'club' pro am. Really does show the 'pulling' power of the Seminole membership! The members not playing in the event really do turn out to watch the golf which adds to the day.

PS. One of the pro's in our group played one of the best rounds of golf I've ever seen and shot -5 on his own ball.

« **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2008, 10:42:46 AM »

"TE Paul,
In reading the book "The Match", a reference is made to a scandal at Deepdale. I gather this had something to do with amateur rules, and I am speculating that perhaps some expenses were paid to amateurs. Maybe it involved a calcutta. Do you know any details?"

Lou:

I don't know how much I know about the details of the Deepdale calcutta scandal other than to say that particular instance basically killed the old calcutta world vis-a-vis the USGA.

I believe the problem at Deepdale was that some players who may've even been professionals came in under phony names to play as amateurs.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2008, 11:03:02 AM »

The rise and fall of the calcutta is a chapter in golf history that needs badly to be written.

Until some time in the '50's there were calcuttas the week before the Masters at Palmetto and other Augusta area courses. Big money was involved. All the pros seemed to play in them. For a time in the '30's, 40's and 50's I think pros made more money in calcutta winnings that in official money.

They always existed on the fringes of legality (to put the best face on things), but I've never been clear about why they ended so abruptly.

Bob

« **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2008, 11:15:53 AM »

« **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2008, 11:15:59 AM »

Quote from: BCrosby on March 05, 2008, 11:03:02 AM

The rise and fall of the calcutta is a chapter in golf history that needs badly to be written.

Until some time in the '50's there were calcuttas the week before the Masters at Palmetto and other Augusta area courses. Big money was involved. All the pros seemed to play in them. For a time in the '30's, 40's and 50's I think pros made more money in calcutta winnings that in official money.

They always existed on the fringes of legality (to put the best face on things), but I've never been clear about why they ended so abruptly.

Bob

I couldn't agree more.

Here is an archived 1955 Time magazine article on the fallout from the Deepdale Calcutta.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,823961,00.html

The main upshot was that the USGA subsequently moved to specifically ban Calcuttas as a form of permitted gambling altogether. I always regarded it as fortunate that the USGA never went the way of, say, the NCAA in trying to institute elaborate phonebook-sized regulations on something like gambling. The Deepdale thing was a quick reaction to a notable scandal at the time. (Surely there is a corelation between the relative exclusivity of a private club, and the amount of column inches that any club-related 'scandal' might recieve. Witness Martha Burk and ANGC.)

« **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2008, 11:21:33 AM »

I think the film "Banning" centred around pros as ams in CC calcuttas.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0061383/

I caught part of it on TGC once. Lots of lounging around the club - drinking, wagering, and cheating of all kinds.

« **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2008, 11:22:54 AM »

One of the reasons I may be a bit light on explaining some of the calcutta history of the past that I do remember is because to be honest I've never completely figured out how calcuttas worked.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 05, 2008, 11:29:03 AM »

In my next life,I want to come back as Tom Paul.

« **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2008, 11:42:38 AM »

...or Warren Beatty's fingertips

« **Reply #16 on:** March 05, 2008, 12:13:14 PM »

"In my next life,I want to come back as Tom Paul."

JM:

You might want to rethink that.

In my next life I doubt I'd want to come back as me---but I would like to come back.

« **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2008, 12:19:14 PM »

Maybe come back as TEP's fingertips? (BTW, very funny, Peter.)

I've played in a couple calcuttas back in the day. Teams were auctioned to "investors". The investments were pooled and then awarded to the winning team. If a pro was on the team, he got a percentage of the winnings. I'm sure there were variations on those themes, but I think that is the basic idea.

The auctions tended to get very competitive (there was a lot of showing off) and bids would run up very quickly on good teams.

Bob

« **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2008, 12:29:19 PM »

The only Calcutta I was ever in the leading player went for about 7 grand and I went for 50 quid.

« **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2008, 12:29:49 PM »

Bob:

Wasn't one of the deals with calcuttas that you weren't allowed to buy too much of your own team or something like that?

« **Reply #20 on:** March 05, 2008, 12:54:27 PM »

Calcutta gambling on Wikipedia

They do this sort of thing on Wall Street with the NCAA tourney. They actually had to suspend it for a few years when one young guy got a little over his head (shorted Duke and bought UNLV the year that Duke upset them in the final) and skipped town on several hundred thousand dollars worth of bets. Rumor has it his firm covered his bets, as they didn't want to anger their clients.

And no, it wasn't me.

Seminole is on my wish list for courses I'd just like to walk during a tournament. Is the Coleman open to the general public for spectating?

« **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2008, 12:58:36 PM »

TEP - That is possible. I was a kid at the time, which was a long time ago.

Rich makes a good point. The auction will give you a very clear picture of how your fellow club members view your golfing skills.

Bob

« **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2008, 01:03:53 PM »

"Seminole is on my wish list for courses I'd just like to walk during a tournament. Is the Coleman open to the general public for spectating?"

George:

I don't think the Coleman ever was but I think this one might be. On the other hand, there may be a different definition for "public" in Palm Beach than there is in Pennsylvania.

« **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2008, 02:13:56 PM »

Quote from: TEPaul on March 05, 2008, 12:29:49 PM

Bob:

Wasn't one of the deals with calcuttas that you weren't allowed to buy too much of your own team or something like that?

At one of my clubs have have a great calcutta:

Step 1: "Buy a bagger" - all participants are split in half based on handicaps. The "A" players (low handicaps) than buy their "B" player partner in an auction.

Step 2: Calcutta - after the teams are set, they all auctioned off to the highest bidder. Bidding can get pretty ridiculous for those considered to be the biggest "baggers". You are more than welcome to buy your own team, and it is customary to at least offer to sell 50% of any team that you buy back to them (i.e. most teams own at least 50% of themselves)

Step 3: "Golf" - try you best to enjoy a 6 hour round of golf, as literally thousands of dollars are on the line for every 2-footer. Top 3 net teams get paid out of both the bagger and calcutta pools, and usually the top gross (that is not in the top 3 net) gets a small piece.

Good times.

mjw

« **Reply #24 on:** March 05, 2008, 05:06:47 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on March 05, 2008, 12:54:27 PM

Calcutta gambling on Wikipedia

They do this sort of thing on Wall Street with the NCAA tourney. They actually had to suspend it for a few years when one young guy got a little over his head (shorted Duke and bought UNLV the year that Duke upset them in the final) and skipped town on several hundred thousand dollars worth of bets. Rumor has it his firm covered his bets, as they didn't want to anger their clients.

And no, it wasn't me.

Seminole is on my wish list for courses I'd just like to walk during a tournament. Is the Coleman open to the general public for spectating?

No, but they're always looking for good caddies that week George

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