[Michael Christensen]

Back to golf matters.....not sure if anyone has ever seen these, but an interesting Harpers for sale on Ebay right now:

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael,

Those are absoutely awesome pictures...thanks for finding and sharing. 

Although...I had no idea the trench coat mafia existed back then.   Can you imagine trying to tee off with those Faustian characters hovering closely??! 

Those guys look like they stepped out of an Edward Gorey story-book.

[Adam Clayman]

While it's been awhile since I've seen pix of NGLA, could those of you who love this course compare the current presentation to what is clearly a much more natural look?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

While it's been awhile since I've seen pix of NGLA, could those of you who love this course compare the current presentation to what is clearly a much more natural look?

Adam,

I was just looking at these earlier this afternoon...

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/USA/N%20York/NGLA/index.html

[Sebonac]

Kyle,
Those are excellent pictures.  Remember these were taken before the club took down most every tree.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Given the routing hasn't changed, can anyone ID the old BW pics as to hole and shot.

In the last photo, I think I see a tee marker in what looks to be native grasses!  If so, while some may not want our courses perfectly groomed, I would be much happier playing NGLA in its current form over the original turf conditions!

[John Kavanaugh]

I think the old pictures are ugly.  I just don't see the ball rolling at all.

[Brad Klein]

Images 1 & 4 would have to be the tee shot and green of the original Cape hole, No. 14, before the green was moved back and to the left.

[Tim Nugent]

I'm sorry, maybe my eyes are getting too old, but I don't see any golf holes, only what looks like a field.  And the carry in that first pic looks like a killer.  Could it be that these were taken during the layout phase?  Otherwise, he would be teeing it up in front of the marker Jeff points out. (Although the grass is so long it could be anything - note the straight line - might be a club). 

If some of you guys like this as "the natura look", I'd short Toro stock.  In Wisconsin the call this "Pasture Pool".

[Bill_McBride]

Image 2 looks like the view of the 18th fairway after a short tee shot!

[Sean_Tully]

I was going through some golf collectors things and I found this article and did not recognize any of the photos from anything that I had seen of in any book etc.  I contacted George Bahto to verify this and it was new to him. There is a handful of other photos and a pretty lengthy article. I would love to look through the rest of the Harper's stuff to see what else we can be found.

Tully

[George_Bahto]

The entire article is 4 pages long and has hole by hole descriptions - this a year before the course officailly open.

Some kind soul sent this to me about a year ago.

The first picture: "The 14th tee (Cape), with a long carry over the waters of Bullshead Bay"

Picture 2: "The big pit bunker that guards the sixteenth green" (short of the green on the right)

Picture 3: "A yawning chasm engulfs the careless player at the right of the seventh green"

Picture 4: "The difficult fourteenth green, protected by a four foot retaining wall of solid concrete"

Picture 5: "The thirteenth hole, of 160 yards, is a reeproduction of the eleventh at St. Andrews"

There are 12 picture in the article.

[TEPaul]

"While it's been awhile since I've seen pix of NGLA, could those of you who love this course compare the current presentation to what is clearly a much more natural look?"

Adam:

That's not some intended "natural" look in those photos. In 1910 the course had not really "grown in" and the little it had was basically an unmitigated agronomic disaster. What would pass for a formal opening didn't take place for at least another year.

Really great shot or two of the position of that old "cape" hole green.

[Mike Sweeney]

Really great shot or two of the position of that old "cape" hole green.

Tom or George,

So the access road was not there. If I remember, golfers came by boat? From where to where and is a dock near that picture of The Cape green? Or was this when the clubhouse was between the current 9&10?

Was the access road built and Cape Hole changed when the current clubhouse was built?

[TEPaul]

Mike:

When the course originally opened the clubhouse was not in its present location and I think they sort of used that old hotel behind the 9th green which then was the 18th. That old hotel burned down at some point.

I'm not sure when the present road along the water to the clubhouse was built (George probably knows the date) but before it existed the old cape hole (#14) green was right against the water (the present road would've gone right over it).

It seems to me even after the present clubhouse was built for a time people got to the the present clubhouse by traveling to the left of the 14th fairway and along the present maintenance road that runs alongside #15 and between #3, #2 and #16 and behind #1 green.

That driveway may've even been used for quite a time otherwise I don't know how to explain that rather eloborate gate that you go through when entering the property to the maintenance buildings that runs past Bill Salinetti's (the super's house).

There is also some very interesting old evidence of something structural right around where that old cape hole green used to be against the water. Next time you travel the road to the clubhouse stop where it used to be and take a look at all those old pieces of stone and concrete that are still piled along the shoreline to the right of the road. Is that old material vestiges of some kind of support or protection for the original "cape" green against the water?

[Mike Sweeney]

I'm not sure when the present road along the water to the clubhouse was built (George probably knows the date) but before it existed the old cape hole (#14) green was right against the water (the present road would've gone right over it).

It seems to me even after the present clubhouse was built for a time people got to the the present clubhouse by traveling to the left of the 14th fairway and along the present maintenance road that runs alongside #15 and between #3, #2 and #16 and behind #1 green.

I don't have George's book here, but I wonder if the access road was changed due to the Town of Southampton wanting to get access to the beach (a bunch of guys fish there now) or due to Macdonald's desire to hide the road from the course?

I have to say that old Cape hole looks very interesting, and I personally would prefer the open vistas out to the right playing 14-17.

My goodness, did I just discover the first flaw in NGLA!   

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I'd think back in the early part of the 20th century Macdonald et al didn't have much to worry about with the town of Southampton and the wishes of fishermen. 

But to be honest with you I think the old driveway through the center of the course to the clubhouse seems pretty cool.

However, at some point I suppose the club did have to deal with people wanting to get to that beach beyond Macdonald's gate.

In a sense it may've been the same issue that CPC had to deal with and that Morse forced Mackenzie to deal with to Mackenzie's disappointment.

[George_Bahto]

“old cape hole (#14) green was right against the water”  ...... actually the green jutted out into the Bay on three sides. (Cape: definition)

As NGLA got more and more play the traffic thru the course via the service road to the clubhouse got to be more and more of a distraction so it was decided to do solve a number of local, course problems at about the same time.

Problem: A lot of golfers were trying to drive the Cape hole green (probably during a downwind situation) and CB wanted to lengthen the hole.

Problem: The afore stated traffic situation though the middle of the course needed resolution.

Problem: Access to the beach club from the clubhouse was a path directly across the 18th fairway

Problem: The route from the yacht basin needed to be addressed (if the new clubhouse access would be forthcoming) .... the route to the basin was then thru the service route to the clubhouse and then down to the yacht basin and visa versa.

Problem: Hole 17 was now playing too short and needed to be lengthened.

In the 1920's it was decided to continue the road past the Vanderbilt Gate (the gate leading into the club by the super’s hole), the 14th green was to be moved inland, the new road continued around the property line and a new set of gates (George Bourne donation - often called the Macdonald Gate - the present gate) and 17-green relocated to its present location adding needed length (makes you wonder what the old green was like??).

The ‘38 hurricane wiped the basin and the beach/swim club.

The original clubhouse was the Shinnecock Inn located behind and left of the 10th tee and of course the original routing began with present 10 as hole-1. After the Inn burned down (this before the course was finished) it was decided to build a new clubhouse (in the present location) and reverse the nines. I personally like playing the course beginning on the 10th.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

There may be a few explanations to your question, among others, you have not yet considered:

1. Those photographs from 1910 were marked much later than 1910 or just miss-marked.
2. George Bahto is full of shit and just makes stuff up about NGLA as he goes along as I do and as I always have.  

George:

I'm going to bet you 1/3 of a beer that the Shinnecock Inn was behind and to the right of the 9th green (originally the 18th green) and not behind and to the left of the green.  

[George_Bahto]

OK, you pay - Bill and I found the foundation !! - and of course I make this stuff up

[Michael Christensen]

I am far from an expert here, but I figure if these photos were in a magazine from 1910 they were taken in 1910 or before that time....

[TEPaul]

Damnit to hell---that means I owe you 1/3 of a beer. I hope it doesn't break me.

By the way, if that hotel was behind and to the left of the 9th green doesn't that get pretty close to Shinnecock's land? Or perhaps Shinnecock didn't even own that land in 1910.

Actually, George, my research shows me all that was to the left and behind NGLA's 9th green was a rather large outhouse----so congratulations, I think that's the foundation you and Bill dug up. But don't lose any sleep over it because outhouses have feelings too, you know.



"I am far from an expert here, but I figure if these photos were in a magazine from 1910 they were taken in 1910 or before that time...."

Michael:

What kind of cockamammy deduction is that? I've seen all kinds of photographs in magazines from around 1910 that were taken as late as the 1930s.

[George_Bahto]

I don't think the Inn was on ngla property

Shiv and Tom

[Dan Moore]

I assumed George used the modern day hole numbers so as not to confuse us.  See how far that got us. 

Who gets the other 1/3 of the beer? 

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