[David Stamm]

I wanted to give this it's own thread rather than asking on the North Berwick 16th thread.  Aside from HH's British Golf Links book, is there any other photos of the Chasm hole, specifically the green?

[BCrosby]

David -

I would love to see anything people have, but my understanding is that there is little evidence about what the original Chasm Hole looked like. It didn't exist for very long.

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

I presume that you have already read the Feature Interview
in Dec 1999 with George Bahti on GCA.com.

Expect its a daft question

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

I knew I had seen something, try the following site, it may not be what you want

www.golfstrategies.com.au/graphics/articles/Narooma%20GA7.pdf - Similar pages

[David Stamm]

David

I knew I had seen something, try the following site, it may not be what you want

www.golfstrategies.com.au/graphics/articles/Narooma%20GA7.pdf - Similar pages

Thanks Melvyn. Quite interesting.


Okay, I'm going to reach here, so here it goes. Since the Chasm hole at Biarritz did not last long, since CBM had visited NB and obviously brought the concept of the Redan to America, could the green at NB's 16th have given him the idea for the Biarritz green? Think about it for just a moment. The name "Redan" was given to the 15th at NB because of it's likeness of a Crimean fortress position. Perhaps, and I know this is pure speculation, CBM had seen the green at 16 and it reminded of him of the point to point tee shot in France and hence gave it the name Biarritz in honor of the Chasm hole after tweaking the design to suit what he envisoned, much like the Alps hole was called what it is beacause of it's nature. Possible?

[James Bennett]

David

I knew I had seen something, try the following site, it may not be what you want

www.golfstrategies.com.au/graphics/articles/Narooma%20GA7.pdf - Similar pages

Melvyn (and David)

that is Neil Crafter's web-site ( a poster here).  The article mentions that the Biarritz is discussed in Golf Arhcitecture volume 6.  I will look it up later (it is 'stored' at present).

James B

[Jim Thompson]

David,

I know in the past the premis that the Biarritz swale was inspired by the Valley of Sin at The Old Course.  As long as we're willing to go out on the limb, I'll renew my belief that the visual appeal of the design of the Biarritz green is that it is a restatement of the overall topography of the hole from tee to green.  High over low to high.  I think this is a factor in many great greens, that they restate a general theme.

Cheers!

JT

[George_Bahto]

David, there are no known photos or description of the Chasm hole green. I've been on this story for about 12-15 years although there have been a number of articles about the hole - esp Br Golf Illustrated that had an article with a number of photos.

What I did find, through good friend Dick Donovan (RIP), was a painting of the hole, tee to green. Dick was visiting someone in England and saw the painting his friend recently had purchased.

Very early on, Dick encouraged me to write a book about what I had found out about Raynor and Macdonald so knowing this would interest me greatly he graciously got permission from the owner of that original art work for me to use it in my book.

He pulled out this 8 X 10 photo of the framed picture and said it was for me.

There are actually two different versions of the view of the tee, chasm and cliff beyond of the Chasm hole. The one I have and I found a black and white version in one of the old magazines that showed the people teeing off from the cliff but the caddy part way down the hill was in a different position.

So just as a reminder of the general concept of this hole, it was played from the 80' cliff, over about 155-160 yards of the Bay of Biscay to a 50' cliff beyond.

One would have to assume the configuration of the green.

The hole was built by Willie Dunn in 1888 and lasted about 3- 4 years in its original form.

They then moved the tee to the left making the carry easier and built a hotel on the cliff. Finally moved it far left and a hole of some 70-80 yards was left of the original 220+-yard hole. And at some point the entire hole was eliminated.

[Jim Nugent]

George, do you have an opinion about the Chasm hole green?  Do you think it was a Biarritz? 

Another question: if the hole had such a short life, did MacDonald even have the chance to see it?  i.e. was he in Europe when the hole existed? 

[David Stamm]

David, there are no known photos or description of the Chasm hole green. I've been on this story for about 12-15 years although there have been a number of articles about the hole - esp Br Golf Illustrated that had an article with a number of photos.

What I did find, through good friend Dick Donovan (RIP), was a painting of the hole, tee to green. Dick was visiting someone in England and saw the painting his friend recently had purchased.

Very early on, Dick encouraged me to write a book about what I had found out about Raynor and Macdonald so knowing this would interest me greatly he graciously got permission from the owner of that original art work for me to use it in my book.

He pulled out this 8 X 10 photo of the framed picture and said it was for me.

There are actually two different versions of the view of the tee, chasm and cliff beyond of the Chasm hole. The one I have and I found a black and white version in one of the old magazines that showed the people teeing off from the cliff but the caddy part way down the hill was in a different position.

So just as a reminder of the general concept of this hole, it was played from the 80' cliff, over about 155-160 yards of the Bay of Biscay to a 50' cliff beyond.

One would have to assume the configuration of the green.

The hole was built by Willie Dunn in 1888 and lasted about 3- 4 years in its original form.

They then moved the tee to the left making the carry easier and built a hotel on the cliff. Finally moved it far left and a hole of some 70-80 yards was left of the original 220+-yard hole. And at some point the entire hole was eliminated.

 

Thanks, George. I have seen the photo's in HH's book. It's too bad we can't see any details of the green based on these. I'm hopeful something will turn up some day that will shed some light on it's features.



I think Jim asks a good question, did CBM make it over there during that window of time that the Chasm existed? Assuming that the hole (1888) lasted the four years that George gives us, that would bring us to 1892, the time of when CBM was doing Chicago. Where was he leading up to this?

[George_Bahto]

Jim: I think you will find the front section of this hole will have more movement than any other Biarritz and probably have as much movement as anyone could ask for - - and certainly much more than any I could have imagined!

I have never been a fan of "front-section" pin placements for a number of reasons -  although it works at Yale - mainly because, as we have recently uncovered, there was never the Macdonald/Raynor intention that the putting surface should encompass the entire dual area. This came to light a months or so ago.

however ..................

Given the movement of the front section I saw last week in the finished sub-grade of the Old Macdonald version green cavity, where the deft Mr. Hepner was applying his D-4 (5) dozer-genius, pin placements on this section will be very interesting to say the least.

[George_Bahto]

“did CBM make it over there during that window of time that the Chasm existed? Assuming that the hole (1888) lasted the four years that George gives us, that would bring us to 1892, the time of when CBM was doing Chicago. Where was he leading up to this?”

The spring of 1892 was the time Charles laid out the rudimentary course on his friend Horace Chatfield-Taylor’s father in law’s lawn.

Prior to that CBM was in the midst of what he considered his “dark ages” of nearly 20 years - no golf.

Whether he had taken any trips to France during the dark-age period or not, I don’t know but given what he wrote in Scotland’s Gift and the critical financial condition of the country and especially the Chicago area I would tend to doubt it.

Perhaps he never saw the original version but certainly it would have been evident what it had been at one time, even years later while he was overseas gathering his information.

[Jim Nugent]

George, maybe you've answered this before.  Do you know who gave the name "Biarritz" to this hole, and when they did so? 

[George_Bahto]

CB was totally in charge so you must assume it was him. The Pipigng Rock scorecards lists the 9th by name.

[Jim Thompson]

George,

I can easily see CB putting movement and feature throughout the green complex.  I believe the three plane approach is a result of Raynor and his need for mathematical symmetry.  I know our Biarritz has significant movement on all three planes to the extent that I don’t think you can call them levels in any other context than describing them as being inspired by a Biarritz concept and those which are most noted here have greater deal of Raynor’s influence then CB’s.


Cheers!

JT

[TEPaul]

"I have never been a fan of "front-section" pin placements for a number of reasons -  although it works at Yale - mainly because, as we have recently uncovered, there was never the Macdonald/Raynor intention that the putting surface should encompass the entire dual area. This came to light a months or so ago."

George:

What was recently uncovered or came to light a month or so ago indicating front green sections were never Macdonald/Raynor's intention?

[George_Bahto]

There wa a Yale thread not long ago - Tony Pioppi came up with the info - I'll look it up wen I can get qt it Tom

[TEPaul]

George:

In my opinion, the only really definitive point that could be made on the question of green space on the front section of biarritzes is if Macdonald or Raynor actually said somewhere or wrote somewhere that they never intended that.

Somewhat less convincing to me, anyway, would be if someone could prove not a single biarritz ever had greenspace on the front section while those men were around or working on those courses.

In my opinion, if anyone ever proves that if even one of those biarritzes had greenspace on the front section while those men were around working on those courses I think that sort of basically shoots down the notion they never intended to have green space on the front of any biarritz green.

[George_Bahto]

Tom, the following is a portion of an article tony sent me on Jan 26, 2008 which he found while reseaarch in CT newspapers


Special to The Courant
The Hartford Courant; Aug 16, 1925 - page B4
New Haven, Aug. 15, 1925

Yale to Open Probably Most Unique and
One of Largest Golf Courses in United States


Layout Includes Nearly 700 Acres

Memorial to Ray Tompkins, One of Bulldog’s Greatest Athletes

Wide Latitude is Given Architect 

etc - etc

later in the article ...



   The ninth hole is over the northwestern end of the Greist pond and has it original on the Biarritz course in France.   
   The green proper is behind a deep groove in the approach which is of about the same area as the green. The approach is bunkered heavily on the right and left and the fairway is the lake. This hole is one of the most interesting of the course and is deceptive because of the full water play although the hole is not a long one.

[TEPaul]

George:

Thank you. Very interesting indeed as it seems to me that Yale's biarritz heretofore was the only one that some believed had green space in the front section originally.

I am aware of no other American Macdonald/Raynor biarritz where some credible people have claimed that the front section was greenspace. Are you?

I suppose the next interesting question would be for someone to document whether NB's #16 has had green space on its front tier since it was originally built. If for some reason someone could prove that NB did not have greenspace on that front tier early on then that fact might be pretty damn interesting as to this question of where Macdonald got the biarritz two-tier/swale green idea, don't you think?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

When I started going around to look at old courses c. 1980, the only two Biarritz greens that had putting surface on the front half were Yale and St. Louis CC.  I've never seen an old aerial photo of either of those, so I don't know whether the St. Louis green goes back to the beginning or not.

I have seen 1920's aerials of Chicago Golf, Piping Rock, Shoreacres, The Creek, and Lido, and none of those had the green extended onto the front pad at that time.

P.S.  I love the headline of that Yale article, George.  I guess they were into hyperbole even back in those days ... but you'd think somebody would have flagged the phrase "most unique".

[Tony_Muldoon]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?board=1%3baction=display%3bthreadid=21926

more info here.  From memory one Tommy N. said he had seen a photo.(COME BACK TO THE DARK SIDE T.)
aerial of area courtesy of Yannick. The hole played out towards the lighthouse.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Stamm,

Do you think that either the 15th and/or 16th at CPC were inspired by the original ?

Jim Thompson,

The comment that the 18th at TOC inspired the configuration of the green on the Biarritz is an interesting comment.  Do you recall where you heard that ?

[TEPaul]

"P.S.  I love the headline of that Yale article, George.  I guess they were into hyperbole even back in those days ... but you'd think somebody would have flagged the phrase "most unique"."

TomD;

It has not escaped my notice in the last ten years that back in that day hyperpole about courses was more than a little outrageous compared to today.

Back then most every relatively high-profile job (and even those that really weren't) were pumped up shamlessly by both the contract architects and the press as alternatively "the most unique", "the most expensive" (or "no expense spared") or "the best" in the region or even the nation.

Why did they do that back then so shamelessly?

Probably because, unlike news dissemination today, they realized nobody in the next state or region would ever read or even see a local or regional newspaper. 

[David Stamm]

David Stamm,

Do you think that either the 15th and/or 16th at CPC were inspired by the original ?

 

What original? Do you mean Raynors original plan at CPC?

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