Visitors green fees at Private Clubs?

[Andrew Bertram]

Dean,

I'm telling you that if someone lives in Australia and flys to this country to study the architecture of a course they have close to a 100% chance of success.  Why don't you try to access a private course in this country and then tell me how it went.  I believe I will be able to show you a path towards success.  My God man, Sweeney just explained how to play Shinnecock which may be the very best we have to offer.

Dean

I certainly agree with John. Coming from Melbourne I have had success in playing Shinnnecock, NGLA, Winged Foot, Garden City, Oakmont, San Francisco, Olympic, Cypress Point, Chicago, Merion, Riviera, Bel Air and The Golf Club among aothers all by simply writing well in advance asking what times might be available as a single and when is the best time of year.

At the leading Sand Belt clubs the only way locals can get on is by being a guest of  a member, a charity day or a corporate outing. The clubs simply do ont let them play as a "green fee" player. All these clubs allow overseas players with the payment of waht we all see as a high green fee for the access.

Australian clubs are certainly modelled on the British Clubs rather than American clubs with fees that do not preclude many on a financial basis. The leading clubs average about $3000 a year in fees, including RMGC and the Heath.

 

[Mike Sweeney]

JK-How I contacted the pro was not the point, my point was that, at many clubs, no matter who you are or how you contact them, they simply will not let you on without a member sponsoring and playing with you.

J,

You lost me when you said "no matter who you are or how you contact them".  It has been my experience that with patience the clubs end up finding you.

Not quite sure if they found Joe, but he is persistent!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXvxRyHxSzE&eurl=http://top100golf.blogspot.com/

http://top100golf.blogspot.com/


There are three courses in Japan ranked in the world's top 100 courses. Kawana (ranked #80), often described as the Pebble Beach of Japan, is a resort course. Unless you consider the 8,000 mile flight a hindrance, it is not that difficult to get on the course and play. The other two include Naruo (ranked #75) which is located in Osaka and is a private club and Hirono Golf Club (ranked #35) also a private club, located in Kobe.

I had fun last year trying to get on the #47 ranked course in the world, Morfontaine in France. It was a learning experience to try and play a course in a foreign land without any contacts. I received a lot of good feedback about my many aborted attempts to play this ideal French course and I was ultimately successful. So, I'm at it again.

This time, I am trying to gain access to the top ranked courses in Japan. As usual, I am aiming high, trying to get onto the best private courses in the land of the rising sun. I did a Google search for both Hirono and Naruo and found the phone numbers for both. I figured a good first try would be to just call them up and see if I could schedule a round. I was steeling myself for a tough time. My odds of this being successful are low, however, given the language barrier. I'm not too worried about breaking through eventually, since I've been rebuffed, turned away and put in my place by some of the best private clubs in the world. I have become very resilient and feel that when I put my mind to something I can achieve it.

With my calling card in hand, I decided to ring them up and give it a try. Since so much can be lost in translation, I have included an actual audio transcript below of my first attempts to play a round at Hirono and Naruo. Well, as you'll hear, the language barriers between Japan and English are high.

I'm still not quite sure whether she told me 'no' or whether it was 'no problem' and I actually have a date and time when I'm supposed to play. My guess is the former. Japan is a country with a lot of customs, traditions and protocols. Perhaps asking directly for a tee time was the wrong approach at Hirono. Maybe I need to be more polite and respectful of their customs first.

My phone call to Naruo took a different tact. Naruo is one of the oldest and most distinguished private clubs in all of Japan, so I thought rather than asking for a tee time directly, I would ask to be introduced to a member. Still a disaster. A total breakdown in communication, even though they could hear me.

Apologies about the herky-jerky nature of the recording. I went to the Richard Nixon school of tape recording management.

_____________________________

[John Kavanaugh]

JK-I was attempting to say that with the ultra private clubs, whether you contact them by phone, letter, email, or any other form of communication, they simply will say no. If you contact the pro or a Board member that is.

BTW--Any gaps in your weekend foursome at Victoria this summer? I'd be more than happy to fill in.

J,

I tee off in three hours.  Just go to the gate and ask for me, if you are a bit late the shop will shuttle you out to our group.  If you can't make it today just let me know when you will be in town.

[John Mayhugh]

JK-I was attempting to say that with the ultra private clubs, whether you contact them by phone, letter, email, or any other form of communication, they simply will say no. If you contact the pro or a Board member that is.

BTW--Any gaps in your weekend foursome at Victoria this summer? I'd be more than happy to fill in.

J,

I tee off in three hours.  Just go to the gate and ask for me, if you are a bit late the shop will shuttle you out to our group.  If you can't make it today just let me know when you will be in town.

He's completely serious.  And a lot of fun to play with.

[John Mayhugh]

Mike Sweeney,
I'm headed to Japan tomorrow morning.  Maybe I should just take the clubs along and show up at the gate at Hirono and see what happens?

Thanks for a great laugh.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I fully understand the financial outlay and need to recoup at a place such as Sebonack.

You also get a course that is voted #1 private club in the country that nobody without $1 mill. to spare can see.

What course are you talking about ?
And, how do you know that it can't be accessed ?[/color]

Most of the year it will be a ghost town.

But, that's what the members want, a course that they can tee it up on at any time of day or year without any inconvenience.  That's what they're paying for.  It's like their own private course.[/color]

What's the point in that?

Convenience[/color]

Why not allow a few visitors tee times at unpopular times of the day?

The answer to that question is very simple.

Because the club does NOT know the character of the visitor.

Will they steal something from a members locker, play slow, insult staff, dress and behave improperly, etc., etc..

Why should they open up their doors to perfect strangers who have NO accountabililty ?

Forget the tax and public policy laws for a second.
Suppose they did, and suppose they charged a hefty green fee.
You and others would be complaining that it should be more affordable.

Some seem to feel that they have a right of entitlement to barge in, play when they want and pay little or nothing for the privilege.

There's a reason clubs adopt a policy where a member has to sponsor visitors, it's called quality control.  The member is responsible for the quality and conduct of his guests, and that's the way it should be.[/color]

[Matthew Hunt]

I want to see this list of UK courses that can be joined for 1,000 U.S. dollars.

Think 2 of the top 10 in the world.

[John_Cullum]

I believe that if Seminole allowed outside play at $400.00 per round on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, that by the fourth year of doing so their tee sheets would be practically void of outside play.  Same with Merion, SandHills, Peachtree, etc.

Pine Valley could maybe hold out for a little more.

Americans are limited in their willingness to part with their money, maybe not as much as the GBI'ers, but still limited.

The problem with overcrowding won't come until a course gets on the Japanese golfer's radar screen. Augusta Nat'l could never do it because they would be overrun just like Pebble Beach

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I believe that if Seminole allowed outside play at $400.00 per round on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, that by the fourth year of doing so their tee sheets would be practically void of outside play.  Same with Merion, SandHills, Peachtree, etc.

Pine Valley could maybe hold out for a little more.

Americans are limited in their willingness to part with their money, maybe not as much as the GBI'ers, but still limited.

The problem with overcrowding won't come until a course gets on the Japanese golfer's radar screen. Augusta Nat'l could never do it because they would be overrun just like Pebble Beach

Don't underestimate the power of business golf.  Those courses (especially in the big cities) would be full for years.

[Art Roselle]

I've found that most private clubs do allow unaccompanied guests for the right price. Usually however you need to call at just the right time and play at the right time and it helps to have a head pro call from a home course elsewhere. I can't speak for Shinnecock, Riviera or Merion but I'm pretty sure you could get on Hazeltine  for the right price. Interlachen had more una's last year than the previous 5 as well. Calusa Pines also has quite a few unaccompanied groups as well but they all pay very high rates to do so. Maybe its just a question of how to work the system and it is tougher in the U.S. than elsewhere. I remember hearing that either SF GC or Olympic (not sure which) did allow one una 4-some a week on Monday mornings and getting that slot was extremely tough but the one group was a long standing tradition. Anyway just what I know in my little experience of the golf industry.

I have found that courses with lots of out of town members tend to provide at least some accomodation for unaccompanied guests.  Usually a member has to make the time for you, but he doesn't have to be there.  I suppose that is because these clubs have less play and so the crowd problem is not a big deal.  In addition, if a member wants to set up his friends, it is not always possible to be there with them if he lives out of town.  Usually the tee times for this are pretty limited, but it at least provides some access.  I know Cypress has this policy (I played it unaccompanied), but I am not sure how many of the very exclusive clubs do it.

[Sean_A]

Dean Stokes,


The tax laws in the U.S. also come into play.
Clubs are limited in the amount of outside revenue they can receive.
Should they exceed that threshold, they'd lose their tax exempt status, which again, has onerous consequences.

When you combine these two factors you can understand how guest policies evolved differently in the U.S.

Patrick, it can be more of a problem than even staying below the "outside income" threshold.  If you have visitor tee times or welcome the public in an overt way, you could jeopardize your tax exempt status regardless of the amount of income you earn from the outside activity, which would be really bad for many clubs.  Bad as in a non-exempt club can basically kiss 35% of its initiation fees goodbye, and it's easy to end up with a lot of taxable income because of the way expenses are accounted for.  A non-exempt club earning, say, $500,000 per year in initiation income would have to have a big pile of nonmember play to make up the $175,000 that goes to the IRS (even aside from other tax liability).  1000 rounds at $175 per, assuming you could get it.  Thus, outside play can be a money loser once the tax implications are taken into account.

So Dean, it is hard to see why club members should subsidize outside play.

Jeff

You mentions some big ifs.  Are there clubs out there that have been hauled up for overtly accepting outside cash?  Your figure of 1000 rounds is interesting.  That is two 4 balls a day (counting on a 25 week year and no visitors on the weekend). 

I believe that if a club is private then nobody should have a problem with the rules they make so long as its all kosher.  Obviously I would like to see clubs take visitors, but I have the feeling it wouldn't matter anyway cuz the top ones would charge crazy money for a game. 

I must say that the letter writing deal can be effective and I suspect clubs can be most gracious with guys who seem to be on the up and up.  I have tried it only once and the experience has encouraged me to do so again in the future. 

JakaB, your understanding of what constitutes a private club is nonsensical.  FYI, I have joined two cracking clubs whose combined entry fee was well under $1000 - in fact, the figure is closer to $500.  Mind you, I have to put up with visitors, but I don't see that as any great hardship so long as matters are kept under control. 

Ciao   

[Chris Kane]

Because the club does NOT know the character of the visitor.

Will they steal something from a members locker, play slow, insult staff, dress and behave improperly, etc., etc..

Why should they open up their doors to perfect strangers who have NO accountabililty ?

Forget the tax and public policy laws for a second.
Suppose they did, and suppose they charged a hefty green fee.
You and others would be complaining that it should be more affordable.

Some seem to feel that they have a right of entitlement to barge in, play when they want and pay little or nothing for the privilege.

There's a reason clubs adopt a policy where a member has to sponsor visitors, it's called quality control.  The member is responsible for the quality and conduct of his guests, and that's the way it should be.[/b][/color]

Are you suggesting that the likes of Muirfield, Prestwick, Royal St Georges and Sunningdale might have issues with "quality control"?

[John Moore II]

Chris--any club that allows unaccompanied outside play has an issue with 'quality' control.

--Just look at some of the people that come to a public course, they do not care at all about what they do to the course, or anything else.

--Clubs like PV, CPC, and others simply do not want to deal with it.

--I feel that if Pacific Dunes, Pebble Beach and Pinehurst #2 were to all be closed to the public, they would be ranked far higher than they are by the major publications since the course conditioning would be better with the lack of play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Kane,

I'm not familiar with the guest/visitor history of any of the clubs you mention.  Are you stating that NONE of them ever had a problem associated with outside play ?

I do KNOW that outsiders have stolen from member's lockers when clubs have held outside events, be they charity events, business events or community events.

I'm also aware of a situation where a U.S. Attorney and/or a Deputy U.S. Attorney had his wallet and his credentials stolen from a locker.

At my home club in NJ I've left my locker unlocked for over 40 years and never had a member related problem.  I like that comfort factor and want to see it retained.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that if Seminole allowed outside play at $400.00 per round on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, that by the fourth year of doing so their tee sheets would be practically void of outside play.  Same with Merion, SandHills, Peachtree, etc.

I can assure you that outside play at Seminole at $ 400 per round would dwarf Pebble Beach.  The concentration of wealth from Stewart to Miami is astounding.[/color]

Pine Valley could maybe hold out for a little more.[/b][/color=green]

Shirley, you jest  [/b][/color]

Americans are limited in their willingness to part with their money, maybe not as much as the GBI'ers, but still limited.

Not in Palm Beach County.[/color]

The problem with overcrowding won't come until a course gets on the Japanese golfer's radar screen. Augusta Nat'l could never do it because they would be overrun just like Pebble Beach

[Sean_A]

Chris--any club that allows unaccompanied outside play has an issue with 'quality' control.

--Just look at some of the people that come to a public course, they do not care at all about what they do to the course, or anything else.

--Clubs like PV, CPC, and others simply do not want to deal with it.

--I feel that if Pacific Dunes, Pebble Beach and Pinehurst #2 were to all be closed to the public, they would be ranked far higher than they are by the major publications since the course conditioning would be better with the lack of play.

How much higher can these courses go in the rankings?  All three are top 20 and they are among some stiff competition.

Ciao

[John Moore II]

Sean--Pebble was ranked #1 in the world after it held the US Open and Pinehurst was higher in recent years than it is now. I would guess that #2 gets 60,000 rounds a year. It is booked at all times and I don't think it closes any day like many private clubs do. So, you cut that down to 15,000 like many of the clubs ahead of it in the rankings, and I assure you that the conditioning will go up and so will the ranking.

[RJ_Daley]

Firstly, I believe that private clubs have every right to be just that, private, and make whatever rules they want.  But, where it gets tricky for me is what is truly a "private" club, and what are the tax exempt benefits for being not-for-profit private in the totally exclusive sense.   By what specially situated status do they get to buy land, take it off tax rolls, receive public permitting to do things to the land, then promulgate a totally exclusive atmosphere to be arbitrary and capricious in who they allow to use the facility that uses public resourses of water, and other environmental impacts that in one way or the other effect the outside community at large?

There are a variety of equity and non-equity private clubs, with many sub-variations and structure within these different equity and non, examples.  I don't pretend to know the subject enough to really make any definitive comments on their structures... maybe Jeff G., does.  

But, I ask about the example of Sebonack (or perhaps it could be Riviera or Cypress Pt).

Take Sebonack; it was developed by Mr P.  He is said to have paid 41 mill just for the land, lord knows how much for the design/construction.  He 'sells' or 'offers' memberships to an exclusive group for a million initiation fee that I assume he approves or declines these memberships.  Then he relieves the members of some princely yearly fees.  If it is non-equity, I assume that if the member leaves they get some or all the million back, right?  If it is equity, does he retain deed and title to the course and facilities and still retain the right to tell you if you don't please him that you are no longer a member?  What do the members of equity actually own if one guy can rule the roost?  If it is equity, then can't the members by some sort of majority vote decide what their privacy policies and guest play should be, after considering tax consequences and such?  I understand the Japanese guy that "owns" Riviera makes the rules and even decides who gets to remodel the course, etc.  What do the members get for their yearly fee, the right to pay again next year?  

I'm more interested in what the members get in these various situations, and how much control of the actual deeds and titles to the land and facilities these mega founder/developers get to retain, and how that all plays out on the "PRIVELEGE" granted by the government for them to do all these things and NOT PAY TAXES as a not-for-profit.   What do the rest of the taxpayer citizens get for granting this non taxable privelege to a private developer/owner/club mogul like Mr P or others so situated?  

[John Kavanaugh]

  I understand the Japanese guy that "owns" Riviera makes the rules and even decides who gets to remodel the course, etc.
  

Dick,

Why is this the only owner whose ethnicity you mention?  Do you think he is the only owner who chooses what architects get to work at his course, etc. 

[Chris Kane]

I'm not familiar with the guest/visitor history of any of the clubs you mention.  Are you stating that NONE of them ever had a problem associated with outside play ?

No, I'm not.  Where did you get that idea?  What I'm suggesting is that allowing visitors hasn't been the downfall of these august clubs - otherwise they wouldn't persist with such policies.

[corey miller]

"Firstly, I believe that private clubs have every right to be just that, private, and make whatever rules they want.  But, where it gets tricky for me is what is truly a "private" club, and what are the tax exempt benefits for being not-for-profit private in the totally exclusive sense.   By what specially situated status do they get to buy land, take it off tax rolls, receive public permitting to do things to the land, then promulgate a totally exclusive atmosphere to be arbitrary and capricious in who they allow to use the facility that uses public resourses of water, and other environmental impacts that in one way or the other effect the outside community at large?"

Thank you RJ. 

This has to be one of the scariest posts I have seen in a long time.  My private exclusive arbitrary and capricious private clubs tax exempt status is for income tax purposes.  Not sure it has any bearing on the workings of the local government (even though we are the largest employer) as we pay market rate real estate taxes and we have to beg to get any "public permitting" even though we would probably be in for a fight were we to build the houses the land is zoned for and for which we pay taxes on.

[Michael Christensen]

If Muirfield can have full sheets on Tues/Thurs at $450 a pop, Seminole would no doubt be able to do the same....

quality control is the main issue...they don't want to deal with it...end of story

when we were at Muirfield last year, someone not in our group was caught taking pictures inside the clubhouse...a major no no....I am sure the members were not happy, but the full tee sheet offset that anger a little bit

[Jeff Goldman]

Sean,

There are usually one or two of these cases a year.  The theory behind the tax exemption is basically that a group of people getting together for social purposes, who each throw money in a pot to pay for it, don't generate business activity.  An example is a group that meets montly for social purposes, caters a meal for the meeting, and pays for it that night by dividing up the cost.  No tax on the collections that pay for the meal.  That isn't really different from charging the group montly (or yearly) "dues" in advance to pay for the meeting and meal.   The "closed circle" is what does it.  

However, if they finance their activities by selling brownies to the public, and use the proceeds to lower the cost to the "members", then they are engaged in business of a sort and engaged with the public, and get taxed.

There's a lot of other stuff that goes into it, but basically, that's the idea.

Jeff

[Bill_McBride]

"Firstly, I believe that private clubs have every right to be just that, private, and make whatever rules they want.  But, where it gets tricky for me is what is truly a "private" club, and what are the tax exempt benefits for being not-for-profit private in the totally exclusive sense.   By what specially situated status do they get to buy land, take it off tax rolls, receive public permitting to do things to the land, then promulgate a totally exclusive atmosphere to be arbitrary and capricious in who they allow to use the facility that uses public resourses of water, and other environmental impacts that in one way or the other effect the outside community at large?"

Thank you RJ. 

This has to be one of the scariest posts I have seen in a long time.  My private exclusive arbitrary and capricious private clubs tax exempt status is for income tax purposes.  Not sure it has any bearing on the workings of the local government (even though we are the largest employer) as we pay market rate real estate taxes and we have to beg to get any "public permitting" even though we would probably be in for a fight were we to build the houses the land is zoned for and for which we pay taxes on.

People from Wisconsin have a strong Progressive or liberal history!  Think Fighting Bob LaFollette -- or Fighting Dick Daley! 

[corey miller]

I wonder if such attitudes preclude Dick from playing golf at these arbitrary and capricious places that through their tax status take advantage of the disenfranchised?