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John Kavanaugh

Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« on: February 29, 2008, 10:13:46 AM »
When I saw this picture today it reminded me far more of Bandon Dunes than the other courses at the resort.  I just love the look and how they play yet the blowout seems to be all the rage.  Aren't the sod bunkers at Bandon Dunes a more accurate representation of links bunkers than the blowout?


Brent Hutto

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2008, 10:20:23 AM »
It depends on whether you're more concerned with punishing a shot that ends up in the bunker or with looking awesome from the tee, don't it? Given the current state of my sand game I'm better off with the blowouts myself.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2008, 10:22:30 AM »
It depends on whether you're more concerned with punishing a shot that ends up in the bunker or with looking awesome from the tee, don't it? Given the current state of my sand game I'm better off with the blowouts myself.

Brent,

So you like blowouts because they are easier and prettier?  Maybe it is because of my rural background but I find the sod faced better looking.  I will say that I think I have aquired a distaste for the creation of the illusion of erosion.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 10:27:55 AM by John Kavanaugh »

JESII

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2008, 10:34:04 AM »
Now that is a statement I can get on board with...


I will say that I think I have aquired a distaste for the creation of the illusion of erosion.


I have not been to Bandon, but artificial naturalism/minimalism, by definition, rubs me the wrong way and I can't quite put my finger on it.

Brent Hutto

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 10:35:35 AM »
Oh, you want a serious answer. In truth, I'm a bunker agnostic. As long as they fit their surroundings the appearance doesn't matter. My only real preference is that the contour and turf length allows a ball to roll or bounce from the fairway/green into the bunker. With very rare exceptions I think if you're going to have borders of rough sufficient to catch and stop a rolling ball then you ought to save the maintenance cost and not have a bunker at all.

In terms of greenside bunkering, I found Royal Birkdale to be exemplary in this regard. They are the sod-faced bunkers (as they should be in that environment) and could gather shots from quite remarkable distances and angles that appeared to be well clear of bunker trouble. The fellow I was playing with must have said five or six times "That's gonna miss the bunker" or "That'll stop short of the bunker" a couple seconds before his or my ball trundled onto into one of those steep-walled hazards.

Here's another thing about sod versus sand flashing. If you want a really nasty pit, the sod will let you stack the wall just about as steeply as you like. Doesn't a sand face require a little lower slope to remain covered in sand? If so, that's part of why I associate sod walls with difficulty of extraction.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 10:37:46 AM »
I didn't realize the sod bunkers at Bandon get no love. That's too bad.

I think they look great just about anywhere, especially when they're scaled right - the sod bunker look has such resonance and history that I think bunkers anywhere don't have to look "natural", they just need to look like "sod bunkers" to be appealing. 

That kind of flies in the face of some other preferences/ideas I have about golf courses, but the heart likes what it likes I guess

Peter

Michael Dugger

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 11:11:59 AM »
It's all personal preference....bottomline.

Surely maintenance is a consideration, but I've heard sod walls are no cup of tea.

The former sod wall on BD #11 is toast, and has been for what seems like two years now.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jason Topp

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 11:20:43 AM »
I liked them better than the blowouts.

Sean_A

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2008, 11:35:53 AM »
Generally, I prefer sod walls because these bunkers tend to be a bit less obvious than the blowout jobbies.  They look ok, not as good as a blowout mind you, but I haven't seen blowout bunkers (in general) which are as strategic as pot bunkers.  It may be because having sand blow all over the course isn't terribly clever so blowouts may tend to be in areas where this isn't such a problem.  Though I must say, any property which has great natural spots for any type of bunker should consider not building a load of bunkers.  A lovely natural swale or pit is usually far more attractive and often offers more variety (shotwise) than a bunker.  I guess I will always be a grass man. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Wentworth Edinburgh, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty, Dumbarnie, Gleneagles Queens and Carradale

Tim Pitner

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2008, 11:37:57 AM »
Aren't the sod bunkers at Bandon Dunes a more accurate representation of links bunkers than the blowout?

Yes.

The bunkering at Bandon Dunes goes a long way in distinguishing it from the other courses at the resort.  I'm not sure I prefer one bunker style to the other, but I like that both are represented and the bunkers at BD are very evocative of the old (or is it olde?) links. 
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 06:39:10 PM by Tim Pitner »

Rich Goodale

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2008, 12:09:41 PM »
Great choice of golf hole, JK.

Steve Kline

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2008, 12:24:23 PM »
Not all bunkers at BD are sod walled. The bunker (or waste area) to the right of the 5th green is very attractive and ties in beautifully with the surroundings. And since it's appearnace isn't of a regular bunker and has grass growing in I didn't want to get it because I was afraid I would be unsure of the lie and how the ball would react.

Michael Dugger

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2008, 12:29:49 PM »
Few of them are sod walls, actually, most are holes.

They are nice, functional hazards.  Traditional, dare I say.  But it's still about personal preference, and I'll take blowouts and craggy-edged most days.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2008, 01:45:03 PM »
"Aren't the sod bunkers at Bandon Dunes a more accurate representation of links bunkers than the blowout?

JohnK;

Maybe sod bunkers or sod-walled bunkers or revetted bunkers are a more accurate representation of links bunkers than the blowout but the thing most people who really like the blowout look like so much is how much more natural the blowout bunker style looks than the sod bunker or sod-walled bunker or revetted bunker.

The confusion comes because far too many people, even on here, seem to assume that anything connected with links golf or linksland golf is natural or looks natural.

Nothing could  be farther from the truth.

The truth is there are a number of architectural features to do with linksland golf that are remarkably artificial or man-made looking. And the additional truth is it has been that way to do with some aspects and architectural features of linksland golf and architecture for over a 150 years.

Additionally this is precisely why some of Macdonald's National School architecture always looked engineered----eg because he borrowed not just some natural looking aspects from the linksland but also some remarkably rudimentary 19th century man-made architectural features too.

Where do you think the whole idea of "sleepers" and such originally came from? They came from some of the first really early rudimentary man-made architecture in the Scottish linksland!

But the blowout style bunker and look came from those natural elements of the Scottish linksland that has been there for thousands of years and obviously preceded golf and architecture by thousands of years.

The blowout bunker is a representation of an original natural linksland sand and grass formation that doesn't just look natural, IT IS natural-----the sod bunker, sod-walled bunker or revetted bunker is not!
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 01:56:26 PM by TEPaul »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008, 01:52:22 PM »
TE,

I hope that you don't buy into this illusion of erosion that is being pawned off on us.  A blowout bunker with thousands of golfers trancing through or by every year is far from natural.  You can not create the appearance of naturalness and maintain the unstated intent.

TEPaul

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2008, 02:48:12 PM »
"TE,
I hope that you don't buy into this illusion of erosion that is being pawned off on us.  A blowout bunker with thousands of golfers trancing through or by every year is far from natural.  You can not create the appearance of naturalness and maintain the unstated intent.

John Kavanaugh:

I have no idea at all what you mean by "....and maintain the unstated intent."

However, the rest of what you just said is complete garbage, John. I've wondered for years if some of the things you say on here are done for effect to be subtley humorous or whether you really are sort of off-the-wall and off the mark. If you're even remotely serious with your remark above I think it basically proves you've probably always been the latter.

The fact that golfers walk through an actual natural blowout or a really good man-made imitation of one has nothing to do with the natural look of it or the natualness of it. Are YOU under some illusion that if a thousand people tramped  through some wholly natural dunesland (blowouts) that somehow renders them less naturally occuring than they were BEFORE those thousand people tramped through them? And if you are, John, you really truly are off-the-mark when it comes to understanding golf course architecture and most all we talk about on here, at least when it comes to the subject and look of naturalism.

Furthermore, in a natural dunesland setting that the blowoout  bunker is representative of, the natural force responsible for creating that natural blowout look is almost wholly the wind (notice the word "blow" ;) ), while the eroded look that is also represented in natural looking bunkers is almost wholly created by the eroding force of water on earth and sand.

For fairly obvious reasons most natural looking golf bunkers are a combination of the two, and THE LOOK of a combination of the two with probably more concentration on the latter---eg THE LOOK of the eroding forces of water. On the other hand, some natualistic looking bunkers such as perhaps the original CPC style with those lacy fingers of grass into the tops of the low profile sand formations are more a respresentation of THE LOOK within some dunesland blowout formations where vegetation serves to naturally stabalize sand movement.

What you need to do more of John Kavanaugh is to get the hell off paved roads that you're used to making and walk right into some natural dunesland and look at them carefully. After that get off the road and out of your car and look at how the eroding forces of water works on the earthen banks of a stream.

And after all that if you still think that a thousand trampling feet somehow renders those formations less than naturally occuring in the first place, then I really do think you're nuts!  ;)
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 02:59:02 PM by TEPaul »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2008, 02:54:23 PM »
TE,

How can something be natural if it does not exist in nature.  A blowout bunker that was in place near the ocean in January of 2006 that remained on my visit in February of 2008 is a illusion of erosion and not natural at all.  Erosion that stands its place in time may not retain its status as erosion.

TEPaul

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2008, 03:18:28 PM »
John

In my opinion, that last post is really too foolish and too simple-minded to be worthy of much of a response, but suffice to say that the art of golf architecture, at least in the minds of those who believe in the look and feel of naturalism in architecture, is to produce things that "look" as much like they were naturally occuring as possible. The fact that they may not actually be natural or naturally occuring is completely beside the point. Apparently you've never realized that.

Brent Hutto

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 03:26:38 PM »
...the art of golf architecture, at least in the minds of those who believe in the look and feel of naturalism in architecture, is to produce things that "look" as much like they were naturally occuring as possible. The fact that they may not actually be natural or naturally occuring is completely beside the point.

That particular value system is not as universal as you seem to think, even not among the highly self-selected population of those who post frequently to this forum.

TEPaul

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 03:34:47 PM »
Brent Hutto:

For those who really do believe in truly natural looking architecture, I believe that value system is universal. However, I certainly don't think the belief in truly natural looking golf architecture is universal, and I sure have said that many, many times on here. It's even part of the reason for my "Big World" theory on golf architecture.

I don't think John Kavanaugh, for instance, believes in truly natural looking golf architecture. Matter of fact, it doesn't even appear he knows what it is.

But that's OK---in my opinion, nobody has to believe in really natural looking architecture or even understand it. The only important thing in my mind is that they like something about the various types and styles and looks of architecture enough to believe in what they like. Or maybe I should say believe in something about it enough to like it.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 03:42:25 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2008, 03:40:43 PM »
Tom,

What's the upside of creating a blowout bunker, which should be an illustration of a dune in the middle of an erosion cycle, and maintaining it just like that. It seems to me to be a statement along the lines of bringing Mother Nature to a halt...

Brent Hutto

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2008, 03:46:14 PM »
Tom,

Sorry I misunderstood your point and temporarily forgot the "Big World" theory.

As for my own value system, I love a good illusion of nature as much as the next guy but then again some of the courses I most enjoyed playing have had sod-walled bunkers with a patently manufactured appearance. But in a pinch, I want the course that plays properly and am willing to sacrifice some naturalism to that end if necessary.

Norbert P

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2008, 03:51:49 PM »
    I remember battling with Tommy Nac about the BD bunkers. He didn't care for them but I thought they were functional, graceful, strategic and stable.  Someone also mentioned how they liked how you often couldn't see sand in the bunkers but the gentle shadows of slopes into darkness.
    I love the bunkering on PD, as they are naturalesque and if created are a great starting point for erosion processes.  The bunkers on PD15 seemed out of place when I first played them but they have matured and stabilized (methinks) well. They look great even though they're not like the rest of the bunkering. If they had flashed them on that windy plain, they may be in perpetual battle with movement. As they are, hooded on the southern edges, they survive and present well - reminding me of the waves of the Pacific that we're leaving behind.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

TEPaul

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2008, 03:52:50 PM »
JESII:

That's precisely why I said above that the look of what passes for most natural looking bunkers is a concentration more on the eroding forces of water, not wind.

The reason for that is if one can design bunkers that have edges that "look like" the eroding forces of water have worked on them and keep the eroding forces of water away from them they will be enduring and last.

On the other hand, if one creates a true representation of a blowout formation on a golf course for a golf bunker or just uses such naturally occuring things on a golf course for bunkers they will be constantly at the mercy of the wind that WILL keep moving and changing them.

In a real sense that is very much part of the natural dynamic of Sand Hills GC. Both the designers and the management of the course took quite some time trying to figure out what to do about that natural dynamic.

Adam Clayman

Re: Why no love for the bunkers at Bandon Dunes?
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2008, 03:58:24 PM »
The term Erosion in JK's post is the first I've read referring to blowouts.
 
The transition into native plant life, characteristic in most of these bunkers that I think JK is referring to, are the heart of natural golf, or should I say, golfing in a natural setting.

Those Americanized revetted sod walled bunkers, we sometimes get glimpses of during The Open Championship weekend, look like American Golf is doing their maintenance. Yuch!  
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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