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Mark_F

Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« on: February 29, 2008, 02:36:24 AM »
Architects presumably have a large palette of features to test the various aspects of the game.

Although site specifics perhaps preclude some of them, what are the features you wish would appear more often, and what are the reasons they don't?

I was walking a course a while back that had a really neat kicker-type ridge past a relatively easily carried bunker.  Any shot hit not hit with a enough weight and the proper shape to clear this somewhat blind feature would end up being shunted away from the correct line, yet hitting the tee ball hard enough to ensure clearance brought but lacked control would barrel into the rough.   I thought it was a neat but subtle feature.

Others?

Sean_A

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2008, 03:07:53 AM »
Mark

I think fallaway greens aren't used enough.  It seems lately that I have been playing a lot of old courses which all have a handful of holes in which the back of the green is lower than the front, but in a subtle way without obvious visual clues. 

I would also like to see swales used more often.  In effect, I think these are bunker areas (a bit exaggerated) with short grass instead of sand.


I also think they we don't see enough greens which bleed into the fairway - a seamless transition between the two which makes judging distance quite difficult. 

The old fashioned choice between driving aggressively for a view of the green with the alternative being a safe drive leaving a blind approach.   

Finally, centreline bunkers. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2008, 07:31:33 AM »
"what are the features you wish would appear more often,..."

I'd like to see more rough grass mounds and hollows. They're much less expensive to make and maintain than sand bunkers, and generally they can be made to look more site natural than sand bunkers on some sites. They also have the benefit of having no rules distinction from the rest of the course.

BCrosby

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2008, 08:05:23 AM »
The most under-utilized feature on golf courses turns out to be their biggest feature.

Cartpaths. Someday someone is going to come up with an interesting way to integrate them into golf  course designs.

It will make them rich and famous.

Bob 
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 08:24:08 AM by BCrosby »

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 08:31:19 AM »
The as-designed 7th green at French Creek (Hanse - PA) had a great feature - I called it a pimple, but it was actually a mound the size of a flattened out beach ball, about 1.5 feet high and 4 feet in diameter.    It was located beyond a small rise in the rough that, if hit, could be used to run the ball up onto the green. 

The pimple was genius because it made the results of that shot completely unpredictable.  You never knew where the ball was going to end up.

Unfortunately, the mowing equipment was old and this area kept getting scalped, so it was removed after the first year.

I'm going to see if we can bring it back.

---------------------------

So - the answer to the question is mounds/bumps in the green that serve to act as a bumper/barrier.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 09:54:33 AM »
steep grassy banks (NOT WITH A BUNKER)

Phil Benedict

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 09:57:07 AM »
I agree with Sean about fallaway greens, which I haven't seen enough in classic architecture, which favor push up greens (I guess for drainage) which slope from back to front.

Mark_F

Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2008, 01:29:46 AM »
Sean,

I like all of those.

I was also going to mention a knob or roll in front of the green, but I see that the green pictured has pretty much everything you spoke of. 

Where is it?  Looks fascinating.

Thanks.


Marc Haring

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2008, 03:24:49 AM »
Mark

I'll have a quick guess at New Zealand, #18.

Sean_A

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 03:50:58 AM »
Sean,

I like all of those.

I was also going to mention a knob or roll in front of the green, but I see that the green pictured has pretty much everything you spoke of. 

Where is it?  Looks fascinating.

Thanks.



Marc

You are right, the combo of the know with the swale is fascinating.  I just don't understand why only the last 6 holes at New Zealand use cool stuff like this.  Perhaps these last six are more the Simpson influenced holes?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Moore II

Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 09:30:19 PM »
I think centerline bunkers in the fairway are not used enough and center bunkers in front of the green about 40 yards short of the putting surface. Those two features are not seen enough in modern golf courses.

Carlyle Rood

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 09:55:56 PM »
Far and away the least utilized feature in golf architecture is the drink cart.  Where do they hide these things?  I'll see her driving by the first green, then she disappears for three hours.  When she finally does show up, there's never any mayonaise on the sandwiches and she's out of everything but warm Miller Lite.  So I end up using a hot beer to wash down two slices of stale wheat bread filled with reconstituted turkey parts.  And would it kill them to shave the fake turkey into more than one slice?

wsmorrison

Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2008, 01:46:56 PM »
Specific shot testing utilizing natural or artificial slopes (hopefully made to look natural).  A championship course ought to expose the most talented golfer.  This is not a Matt Wardian statement about risk, reward and penalty but rather a concept that is evidenced in the Philadelphia School of golf but rarely discussed.  By the way, I'm all for luck and variables that offer good and bad results--these should be an integral part of the sport.  However, some championship courses were clearly designed with a variety of specific shot tests in mind throughout the round. 

Take for instance the 5th hole at Merion East.  Here is about as natural a landform hole that there is in golf.  How were the natural features utilized?

The fairway cants from the right towards a stream that runs the entire length of the hole (507 yards from the back tee).  The hole doglegs slightly right to left.  The safe shot away from the corner and the creek is to the right where you are left with a ball well above your feet and the need to hit over a large bunker 30 yards short of the green, which slopes precipitously away from you, like the fairway does, towards the creek.  The player that properly executes his shot and dares to take on the inside of the turn and play closest to the creek is rewarded with both a level lie and a shot into the slope of the green.  All other shots are played with the ball above your feet (righties).  The best players can hit a fade off the draw lie and thus are rewarded for being able to execute the shot that is tested--fade off draw lie.  Players with less skill can play to the right of the green and hope that the ground will feed the ball onto the green.  Otherwise they'll have an almost impossible up and down with double bogey likely.  The lesser players playing along the right side of the fairway will have the ball well above their feet.  They may be tempted beyond their abilities to advance the ball towards the green but the large bunker short and the stance itself makes that too risky a decision.  The smarter player with less skill will play towards the flatter fairway area and play back into the slope of the green.

Huntingdon Valley is a course students of golf architecture (and how it melds with the maintenance practices) should study.  It is an excellent classroom in specific shot testing, particularly demanding in terms of shot making and ball striking.  Unfortunately, fewer golfers today, partly due to ball construction, can shape a variety of shots.   Significantly longer distances off the tee mean that higher approach shots can be made and the need to shape shots is reduced.  Softer or more lush conditions mean that balls don't bounce and roll as much as they did.  Returning maintenance practices (including widening fairways) and either lengthening or rolling back the ball will bring the equations back into play.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2008, 01:53:16 PM »
Wayne - great post.

You made me think of what Gil did at our 18th hole.  There's a gentle, right to left tilt to the fairway on the approach shot which causes many to hit a draw or hook into a pond.   Or, a draw that finds the green ends up rolling very close to the hazard.  The expert golfer will hit a cut off that lie to a green that is very receptive to a cut.   

Tim Nugent

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Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2008, 02:00:11 PM »
It's actually more of an under-utilized piece of maintence equipment - the chainsaw.
Coasting is a downhill process

Mark_F

Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2008, 09:30:14 PM »
This is not a Matt Wardian statement about risk, reward and penalty but rather a concept that is evidenced in the Philadelphia School of golf but rarely discussed. 

Wayne,

I am sure you have devoured these excellent articles on Ian Andrew's blog, especially as you and Tom Paul are mentioned in one of them, but Ian discusses these concepts fantastically.

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/06/architect-11-william-flynn.html

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2006_04_30_archive.html

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2006_05_07_archive.html

Are these concepts used as much at Shinnecock Hills as Flynn's Philadelphia area layouts?

Mark_F

Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2008, 09:35:41 PM »
On a somehat related note, this green has interested me since I first aw it on Ran's profile of Alwwodley.  Is there anything similar elsewhere? The control needed to go after a pin just over the ridge on the right would really test someone, on a moderate length hole to boot.

                     

wsmorrison

Re: Most Underutilised Features in Golf Architecture?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 07:08:15 AM »
Mark,

Those are three excellent articles written by Ian Andrew.  We speak the same language when it comes to Flynn.  In fact, I learned so much from Ian when we toured some Flynn courses together, particularly Huntingdon Valley.  I do agree with Ian that there is a sort of similarity in the Philadelphia area courses, but he does exhibit a strong breadth of skill as well as depth when you consider Shinnecock Hills, Indian Creek, Boca Raton North and South courses (NLE), Atlantic City CC, Denver CC, Norfolk CC (now a much tamer Sewell's Point), Kittansett, and others.  Where Flynn seemed to be most systematic is the bunkering of par 3s on ridge tops...multiple bunkers on one side below the green and a single bunker at green level on the other side.  Consider Rolling Green...they are all like that.  Why?  Heck if I know, I'll ask Mike Malone to channel Flynn from the other side and find out  ;D