[Tim Bert]

Tim - very well.  But you also proved my point - you were too tired to go do the third 18 at least one of the days.  I'd have to guess most would be the same; thus the fallacy of basing the "good deal" on playing 54 holes.  Not everyone can do such, or wants to.

TH

True, but if I were young and spry like I was on my 2005 trip then I'd still be going 54.  We had a couple of 54 hole fuddy-duddies in our regular group and my stamina has taken a beating in the last two years.

The dream can still be had, although those most likely to take on the 54 might also be in the demographic least likely to afford the trip since it isn't cheap in the summer.

Still, I think the rising cost and the addition of a 4th course, will allow plenty of space to explore options. 

[David Druzisky]

Jim &Tom,

Thanks for the response on the tees.

In seeing the photo of the green I was trying to figure out if there would be additional value with a broad range of tees, or not.   I guess I would need to see the green in person and really grasp the surface contours impact from different angles.

As far as the scale question I wondered what you guys felt in viewing that green from the teeing area and if it was comfortable.  I would be afraid it might come off a little overwhelming from that close.  Again, I have not experienced that so I am curious.  When you go for the triple scoop ice cream you need to upgrade to the waffle cone, beyond that maybe a bowl.

Jim,  Hunters book was the first book Keith Foster gave me way back when I worked for him in 91.

DbD

[Jim Sweeney]

This picture further confirms to me that Bandon Dunes is and will continue to be the best place to play golf that I have ever been.

[Dan Herrmann]

David and Jim - thanks for getting the thread back on topic.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom D,

Now we're back on topic, when you get back to this on the weekend, did you consider extending the tees up to say 115 yards.  My wife would be ever so happy if she could fly it to the front edge (say 100 yards, since it doesn't look like there's a run-up option) and then have fun putting the green like most others.  More neat would be to extend part of the teeing dune toward the green to provide an 80 yard tee so she has about the same kind of shot I'd have from 150 yards.  Now, that'd be a design breakthrough, but I don't suppose that she would be in the design demographic for OM.

And, I do fawningly appreciate the effort you make on this site to make contributions.  Thanks.

[TEPaul]

J.C. Urbina:

By the way, congratulations to you or the Doak company for the most interesting and seemingly ultra natural way you guys have been treating teeing areas recently!

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom and Jim - did you have to do any burning of the gorse to clear the land, or did you use other means?

How was the soil on the OM property compared to PD?  Tom - you mentioned that PD 13 had been sandstone (a'la BD 16) when you started.  Are you dealing with this at all at OM?

Also, you obviously don't want a bunch of groupies hanging around during construction.  If nothing else, the insurance companies would have a fit.  But is there anywhere that a visitor could have a view of the ongoing work?

Last question - how close are you getting to Seven Devil's Road?

[Sean McCue]

It is my understanding that Sagebrush Golf and Sporting Club is right in line Old MacDonald with the use of extremely large putting surfaces.  The Whitman, Zokol and Suny design has two greens in the 13K to 15k sqft range with another two greens over 18K sqft.  At the opposite end of the spectrum there are greens as small as 4500sft.  With these combinations of hugely varying greens sizes, golfers will be extremely challenged once they reach the putting surface with shots that they have not faced before. 

[Michael Dugger]

Tom and Jim - did you have to do any burning of the gorse to clear the land, or did you use other means?

How was the soil on the OM property compared to PD?  Tom - you mentioned that PD 13 had been sandstone (a'la BD 16) when you started.  Are you dealing with this at all at OM?

Also, you obviously don't want a bunch of groupies hanging around during construction.  If nothing else, the insurance companies would have a fit.  But is there anywhere that a visitor could have a view of the ongoing work?

Last question - how close are you getting to Seven Devil's Road?

Dan

I think I can answer some of those for you.  I do believe that excavator you see in the "before" image, the one with a "thumb" attachment, is what's used to rip the gorse out.  This was covered in the "Dream Golf" book about the resort.  I can't imagine any notion of a "controlled burn" with that stuff except on the smallest of scales.

   

[Tom_Doak]

Bryan:

The tees stop at about 125 yards because after that we are disconnected from the big dune on which they reside ... anything further forward would require a fair amount of fill so it wouldn't be uphill to the green cutting a very stark profile (and would leave no view of the ocean).

However, there won't be anything in front of the green for two-thirds of its width ... just a bit of lightly maintained rough, and a bit of a sharp upslope in the middle front of the green.  So if your wife can't carry the ball 100 yards, she should have a short pitch out of light rough. 

We didn't think it was appropriate to have a bunch of fairway in front of this hole as it would look out of scale, and since Macdonald's Short holes never had fairway -- in fact they nearly always had bunkers all across the front of the green.  We're toning that down because of the windy conditions, and trying to make it a bit more playable for high handicappers.  That's been one of the conundrums of playing Macdonald at Bandon ... minimizing the amount of sand so it doesn't require too many forced carries and so the bunker erosion isn't severe.

Dan:

The property on the west side of the dune is all sand, beautiful sand, though as always there is a sandstone layer somewhere underneath the blanket.  On the east side of the dune, there are more heavy soils, plus a bunch of stumps since the property was logged for years.  That's why we are not working over there right now, it's still too wet.  We believe there is a good layer of sand underneath all that, and are trying to decide whether to sand-cap those holes, or to dig through the bad soils to get to the good.

As for tours, you are correct, we don't need the liability of having people wandering all over while we are doing shaping work.  I know that Mr. Keiser asked Brad Klein to write a brief explanation of what golfers can see from the 14th tee of Pacific Dunes, to be posted there ... but really, unless you are standing on the holes themselves, it's hard to tell too much about them.  I'm happy to show people around when I'm out there myself, but that's only every six weeks or so.

As for your last question, Seven Devils Road runs to the north and we are not very near it on our eastern boundary, which is only a couple hundred yards east of the big dune.  Whiskey Run Road goes to the beach between Bandon Dunes Resort and The Sheep Ranch ... and I would guess our sixteenth tee will be between 100 and 200 yards south of that point, but I haven't walked down there since we started.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - as always, thanks!

[Norbert P]

However, there won't be anything in front of the green for two-thirds of its width ... just a bit of lightly maintained rough, and a bit of a sharp upslope in the middle front of the green. 

A proper adjustment from the National design.  There'll be much more foot traffic and that "lightly maintained rough" will hopefully allow some bounce and optional runup with a half-swing 2iron, and, most importantly, to help out Bryan's wife.

[jkinney]

Bryan:

The tees stop at about 125 yards because after that we are disconnected from the big dune on which they reside ... anything further forward would require a fair amount of fill so it wouldn't be uphill to the green cutting a very stark profile (and would leave no view of the ocean).

However, there won't be anything in front of the green for two-thirds of its width ... just a bit of lightly maintained rough, and a bit of a sharp upslope in the middle front of the green.  So if your wife can't carry the ball 100 yards, she should have a short pitch out of light rough. 

We didn't think it was appropriate to have a bunch of fairway in front of this hole as it would look out of scale, and since Macdonald's Short holes never had fairway -- in fact they nearly always had bunkers all across the front of the green.  We're toning that down because of the windy conditions, and trying to make it a bit more playable for high handicappers.  That's been one of the conundrums of playing Macdonald at Bandon ... minimizing the amount of sand so it doesn't require too many forced carries and so the bunker erosion isn't severe.

Dan:

The property on the west side of the dune is all sand, beautiful sand, though as always there is a sandstone layer somewhere underneath the blanket.  On the east side of the dune, there are more heavy soils, plus a bunch of stumps since the property was logged for years.  That's why we are not working over there right now, it's still too wet.  We believe there is a good layer of sand underneath all that, and are trying to decide whether to sand-cap those holes, or to dig through the bad soils to get to the good.

As for tours, you are correct, we don't need the liability of having people wandering all over while we are doing shaping work.  I know that Mr. Keiser asked Brad Klein to write a brief explanation of what golfers can see from the 14th tee of Pacific Dunes, to be posted there ... but really, unless you are standing on the holes themselves, it's hard to tell too much about them.  I'm happy to show people around when I'm out there myself, but that's only every six weeks or so.

As for your last question, Seven Devils Road runs to the north and we are not very near it on our eastern boundary, which is only a couple hundred yards east of the big dune.  Whiskey Run Road goes to the beach between Bandon Dunes Resort and The Sheep Ranch ... and I would guess our sixteenth tee will be between 100 and 200 yards south of that point, but I haven't walked down there since we started.

Gentlemen;
This is my first post as a newly inducted member. I'm delighted to be here. My question is for Tom. Since "Short" at The National plays with the trade wind, and the OM "Short"appears to play quartering against it, what design features, other than the above mentioned elimination of forced carries, became important ?

[Tom_Doak]

Jeremy:

The sixth at National plays downwind?  I have never played it in that wind.

The Old Macdonald hole plays with a strong wind from right to left ... it will be a helping wind in the summer and quartering against in the winter.  We give the summer wind greater weight since that's when the resort is full, so, from the beginning we were concerned about players being able to hold the green on an all-carry shot. 

That's why the green is banked up so highly in the back, and why we don't have bunkers across the front center.

[TEPaul]

"The sixth at National plays downwind?  I have never played it in that wind."

TomD:

Sure does. If one considers any kind of pervailing wind there it sort of plays as a quartering wind down and from the right on #6 and #4 and it promotes a real hooking tee shot wind on #1. I think that wind direction is basically the am wind. At least it seemed to be that way every am round I've played there. I guess it would be sort of out of the southwest, like a lot of the prevailing US East coast prevailing wind.

[jkinney]

Messrs. Doak & Paul,
   The summer Southampton trade is a "smoky sou'wester" that comes up around noon on most sunny days. Both The National and the modern Shinnecock were designed around it, with the longer 4's going basically north and downwind. McDonald's routing was mostly upwind going out and mostly downwind coming home in the trade wind. Where he deviated, as Messr. Paul notes, was on Redan and Short, which call for delicately precise tee shots into landing areas only a few yards deep with the smoky sou'wester behind.
    When the wind comes out of the north, Redan and Short are the only holes on the course that play easier, and they're not nearly as interesting, IMO. I look forward to playing the OM Short in both prevailing wind directions.
    Interestingly, when Golf Magazine did it's 18 greatest holes in the world series, the two Southampton holes in the group were The National's Redan and "Thom's Elbow", the par four 14th hole at Shinnecock, another mid iron downwind approach when the summer trade is up.
The proper landing area for the run-up shot to the green is as small as that of the Redan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

   The summer Southampton trade is a "smoky sou'wester" that comes up around noon on most sunny days. Both The National and the modern Shinnecock were designed around it, with the longer 4's going basically north and downwind. McDonald's routing was mostly upwind going out and mostly downwind coming home in the trade wind. Where he deviated, as Messr. Paul notes, was on Redan and Short, which call for delicately precise tee shots into landing areas only a few yards deep with the smoky sou'wester behind.
   
When the wind comes out of the north, Redan and Short are the only holes on the course that play easier, and they're not nearly as interesting, IMO.


That's not true.
# 2 plays considerably easier with a North Wind and some would say the same about # 3, # 5, # 7, # 8 and # 9

I think it's just the opposite.
The Redan especially, and the Short play far more difficult with a North wind.

At 195 and 177 from the Red and Green tees, all carry, the Redan takes on a ferocious personality with a North Wind, it's almost directly in your face, quartering from left to right, not the kind of wind that helps shape the ideal shot into the green.

The Short with a North Wind has the wind following the left to right diagonal of the hole, making any mis-hit pay the price of coming up well short.  Getting to the back left quadrant of the green is also extremely difficult.

With the prevailing SW winds you get a great deal of help on the Redan and a good deal of help on the Short, with the front right position being a little dicey.[/color]

I look forward to playing the OM Short in both prevailing wind directions.

Interestingly, when Golf Magazine did it's 18 greatest holes in the world series, the two Southampton holes in the group were The National's Redan and "Thom's Elbow", the par four 14th hole at Shinnecock, another mid iron downwind approach when the summer trade is up.

The proper landing area for the run-up shot to the green is as small as that of the Redan.

Without trajectory, you're dead on the Redan, whereas Thom's Elbow allows for a grounder on the approach.[/color]

[John Kirk]

Gentlemen;
This is my first post as a newly inducted member. I'm delighted to be here. My question is for Tom. Since "Short" at The National plays with the trade wind, and the OM "Short"appears to play quartering against it, what design features, other than the above mentioned elimination of forced carries, became important ?

Newly inducted, and when Pat Mucci disagrees with you for the first time, you're officially indoctrinated.  And it only took 2 posts.  Congratulations, a new record!

[Garland Bayley]

Gentlemen;
This is my first post as a newly inducted member. I'm delighted to be here. My question is for Tom. Since "Short" at The National plays with the trade wind, and the OM "Short"appears to play quartering against it, what design features, other than the above mentioned elimination of forced carries, became important ?

Newly inducted, and when Pat Mucci disagrees with you for the first time, you're officially indoctrinated.  And it only took 2 posts.  Congratulations, a new record!

Of course the third leg of this is officially accepted. That happens when TEPaul takes your side and reminds Pat that he is just and old fuddy duddy.

[jkinney]

Having been advised by Messrs. Kirk and Bayley (above) that my recent post on Redan, Short and Thom's Elbow in Southampton attracted the interest of no less a presence than the august Patrick Mucci, I feel that it is only good manners for a "newbie" such as myself to respond with all due respect and in utmost deference.

Any green that slopes away (Redan), even if only on its back side (Short), I should rather approach against the wind. A green that slopes towards the tee has me prefer the wind at my back. In the former case the wind increases the effective landing area, and in the latter the slope acts as a backstop for a ball with not enough spin to back off the front. Messr. Doak, in responding to my question on the OM Short a few posts up, said that he shaped the back half of the green to slope toward the tee to keep the favoring summer wind from sending tee shots rolling over the back. One is given no such surcease on the backside of The National's Short.

Redan slopes away so completely that, while trajectory matters, as Messr. Mucci says, lMO
landing area is far more important when playing downwind. And on Thom's Elbow at Shinnecock,
the same holds true, IMO, given the narrowing neck of the fairway as it nears the green and given the fall away nature of the back part of the green. Let me also say that, IMO, neither Redan nor Thom's Elbow would have been included in Golf Magazine's greatest 18 holes in the world had they been laid out south to north against the smoky sou'wester summer trade. Of course, neither McDonald nor Toomey & Flynn would ever have done that.

Messr. Mucci is correct in saying the a majority of the frontside holes at The National play easier in a north wind, and in my posting, I should have elaborated, which I will now do. The National's backside is AT LEAST a half shot harder per hole in a Norther of any force, and since it can be hard to get the ball close to the hole positions downwind on the front side, even with the far shorter approaches, shots gained on the front rarely equal shots lost on the back. That being the case, most golfers put far too much pressure on themselves to score going out, which almost never works at the weekend golfer level. Bobby Jones, in a converstion with Pres. Eisenhower at Augusta, said that the greatest round he ever played was level par in a misty and cold Norther at The National. IMO, the best preparation as one makes the turn in a Norther is the downing of an adult beverage (or two) at the halfway house !

In closing, let me say that I'm delighted that Messr. Mucci and I have this disagreement because the greater the golf course, the greater the nuance. Not for nothing are Shinny and The National among  Messr. Doak's few "10's".

[Ben Stephens]

Tom Doak,

Its great that you are designing a short par 3 which is rare on new American courses. Especially being on the coast and exposed to wind. I have often found that the short par 3 is a lot harder than a mid and long par 3 because it is harder to keep the ball low with a short iron on links courses. For me at Brancaster the wee 4th is harder than the longer 15th!

This new green is huge!! - does this put more emphasis on putting than the tee shot I can see people 3 or even 4 putting this green.

I am interested to know how the design of this green was developed.

Did you draw up sketch ideas of the green - with shapes + indication of levels.

OR

Did you wait to see how the land lies after clearing out the gorse and the design of the green evolved from the shape of the existing land? I have built 3 greens at Rutland Water using the existing shape of the land so the green blends in with its surroundings.
 
OR

Was it drawn on CAD? I am strong believer that initial design ideas should start with pencil sketches not CAD. I can see some golf courses and buildings that have been designed by CAD because it tends to be more repetitive and has slopes/shapes that does not blend in with the existing surroundings. Nicklaus' courses especially St. Mellion gives me that impression of 'overusing' CAD and sticking to the plans rather than 'adapting and blending'.


How often are you on site to dictate potential unforseen changes. I am fortunate that I was on site at Rutland Water almost every day as I live 5 miles away and the design evolved over a period of time and it is still evolving.

I look forward to see more images and hopefully playing Ol' Mac in the future.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

I think you have to include additional factors in your analysis of # 4 and # 6 at NGLA.

At # 6 the height differential between tee and green is substantive, thus materially affecting the trajectory of the tee shot.  In addition, at 141 from the red tee, 131 from the green tee and 110 from the white tee, a very short club is often employed.

Thus the trajectory of shots coming into that green approach on a very steep angle of attack, minimizing roll and muting your concerns.

Into the wind, mis-hits are magnified, greatly expanding the shot pattern on a shot where precision is of the essence.

In addition the rear slope on # 6 is nominal

With respect to # 4, at 195 from the red, 177 from the green and 159 from the white, the carry is quite heroic...... with NO wind.

With a one or two club length wind in your face the hole becomes far more challenging to hit, even with the "backstopping" nature of the wind once the ball is in flight above the green.

With the wind, the hole plays considerably shorter, and, the golfer can play it even shorter, playing short of the green, an option that's not available into a good head wind.  Balls hit short into a good wind will remain short, leaving the golfer with a very dicey recovery.

In addition, judging the precise club to carry the chasm, but not carry too far to the deep rear bunker is a challenge with a long club, from 195 playing 220.

One thing we agree on is the incredible nuance the course possesses as an inherent quality.

Joe McBride showed me how to play anything from a driver to a lob-wedge from innumerable locations approaching and recovering to the greens.
That's nuance.

I'm curious if you prefer to hit an iron off # 1 as TEPaul does, or do you prefer a 3-wood or driver ?

And...... WHY ?

[Tom_Doak]

Ben S.:

"I am interested to know how the design of this green was developed."

Okay ... since you asked.

Of course we started with the idea of Macdonald's "Short" hole, the sixth at National.  I have seen the hole at Royal West Norfolk GC in England where his idea supposedly came from, but though I love that course, I don't think that hole is anywhere near as interesting and complex as the version at National.

We knew we would be playing in a crosswind from right to left, sometimes helping, so we determined it would be important to keep the back of the green raised high ... there was already a ridge in back.  We started with a natural blowout to the right of the green for the right edge, and worked off that.

As for "design development" there were no CAD drawings or plans -- we never do those for greens if my own associates are there to do the shaping, because I don't want to tell them something stupid and get them off track.  I just tell them what I'm after (as vaguely or specifically as warranted) and turn them loose.  So ...

After it was cleared of gorse with a trackhoe, the whole green was shaped by Jim Urbina, in about half a day.  At some point a few days later, after Mike Keiser had looked at the raw version, Jim went back on it and added a couple of ridges and pockets with a trackhoe to make sure there were no putts that would get away from you completely ... that there was always some way around ... in anticipation that I would do the same when I got there.

And that's all there was to it.  I never told him to make it 17,000 square feet, just big.  When I got back to see it I was leaning toward lopping off the front left area (where the flag is shown on the picture), because this was the first green we'd built and I didn't want to get going in a crazy direction on other holes.  But, everyone else on site from Bahto and Klein to Keiser and Hepner and Schneider seemed to like it as it was, so I let it stand.

Probably half or more of the greens on my courses today are really designed by one of my associates.  (Four or five of them were even designed by Jack Nicklaus.)  But, I do spend half a day or more on every one of them, making little tweaks to be sure they play properly, adding or subtracting area, and stopping them from going off the deep end.  The green pictured is a rare example where I really didn't do anything to it.  So if it doesn't work ... blame Jim and the committee. 

P.S.  Just kidding there.  I get more than my share of the credit for our work, so I have to accept the blame as well.  But, as I sometimes remind my associates, while they have a chance to make our work better, I'm the one who stops them from building a green that doesn't work, so they get a small share of the credit but none of the blame.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

On a windy site such as Bandon, does the wind influence the degree of contouring and slope in the putting surface ?

Or, is the wind ameliorated by reduced green speeds ?

[Ben Stephens]

Tom,

Thanks for the reply, I have played the Brancaster many times but never played NGLA so I will take your word for it.

Is the back of the green is raised to prevent too many balls going over the green when it is firm. I have a similar approach to you regarding the shape and levels of the greens. I use really basic sketch diagrams to give to my 'digger' who then shapes it and if some areas are too steep we sort of reduce the levels to make it fairer - this is being adaptable to create an evolving shaped green.

I only use CAD for the 18 hole/9 hole course layout drawings.

I find it funny when you never told Jim to build a 17000sq.ft green! Most people don't realise how massive that is. The biggest green I built at Rutland Water was 8000 sq.ft which is roughly 42 yards long by 21 yards wide that is big to UK standards!. I feel sorry for the greenkeeper that has to hand mown it!!

You said that Jim shaped the green in a day was that before you put the rootzone mix on top of it.

What type of rootzone did you use - depth and mix? + does it depend on the type of grass you intend to use (80% fescue and 15% bent). I would suspect that the USGA standard would not work well at Old Mac. I have used 6 to 8 inch sand and fine topsoil rootzone mix for the greens at RWGC where the green shapes itself help it to drain away without the use of perforated pipes underneath.

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