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Don_Mahaffey

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2008, 03:00:46 PM »
Michael,

First off I didn't question anyone’s motives, and I certainly didn't say BD is looking for any free press. But, we’ve been talking about OM for how long now? Sometimes it comes across more as PR than it does golf course architecture.

Second, I don't keep a public journal on WP. Mike Nuzzo keeps a blog, not me. I've had a few things to say but not much...I guess I'm old school in that I think it should be finished before too much chest thumping goes on. 


And yes, I stand by my previous post in that I would much rather see an original design on a piece of ground like that. I don’t look forward to debating how close all the template holes are to the originals and all the rest of that type of talk. Call me foolish, but I like originality.

They put together a great team, and who am I to question Mike Keiser. Like I said in my previous post, I have no doubt it will be great fun to play, but I also guess I’ll always wonder what could have been…


Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2008, 03:21:16 PM »
I did not question anybody's motive -- if that was my intent I would have called out George Bahto by name -- but a number of you have chosen to question mine, without so much as a fact to support your accusations, nor any requests for clarification.

I stand by my post.

Mark

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2008, 03:58:08 PM »
Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

Good post John K...

So Mark, are you running for the post of Barney, Jr. on this board?
 :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2008, 04:01:35 PM »
Lester,

we were thinking of taping every conversation and making them part of a CD. And then Bahto reminded us that to be authentic, they'd need to be old 78s.

B

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #104 on: February 25, 2008, 04:16:57 PM »
Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

Good post John K...

So Mark, are you running for the post of Barney, Jr. on this board?
 :)

Heh. Maybe if it carried a super-grant from the BBGE....

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #105 on: February 25, 2008, 04:35:56 PM »
Lester,

we were thinking of taping every conversation and making them part of a CD. And then Bahto reminded us that to be authentic, they'd need to be old 78s.

B

Brad:

  Split the difference and put it in Eight-track format.

   I  am really glad to see the scope of the scale and boldness in this single green picture. It reminds me of the excitement I felt for both George and you when I first heard of the project.  A strong tip-of-the-hat to you, George, Tom, Jim and all those involved. It looks great and it's nice to read and hear of your group's collective approach and input. You can come out of the bunker now! :D

Steve
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #106 on: February 25, 2008, 06:29:18 PM »
Great stuff guys!

The scale of it is what I am trying to get my head around still, especially on a hole where the tees will be so close to it.  Speaking of tees I do not think anyone has asked about them yet.  Will the tees be large in scale as well and facilitiate different angles in?

DbD

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #107 on: February 25, 2008, 07:14:15 PM »
....speaking of tees....I read today how Chambers Bay was using a new concept of sinuous, unlevel, and varying width tee complexes.... that may or may not be used in their upcoming Open.

The Whitten article gave them credit for this new concept, and I'm a tad confused as I have been led to believe this concept originated in the Doak design camp.

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #108 on: February 25, 2008, 07:31:09 PM »
"we were thinking of taping every conversation and making them part of a CD."

Bradley:

The new USGA Architecture Archive would very much like complete taped conversations of all the design team's conversations and conceptual ideas and decision making. We could even drop them into the Internet application for playback but only if there're plenty of "drats" and "dangs" and "blinking" thises and "blanking" thats in them.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 07:35:10 PM by TEPaul »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #109 on: February 25, 2008, 07:31:43 PM »
....speaking of tees....I read today how Chambers Bay was using a new concept of sinuous, unlevel, and varying width tee complexes.... that may or may not be used in their upcoming Open.

The Whitten article gave them credit for this new concept, and I'm a tad confused as I have been led to believe this concept originated in the Doak design camp.



Paul, you're correct at least as far as the concept pre-dating Chambers Bay and utilized by Doak's group. 

I'm still waiting for an answer to your irrigation question.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #110 on: February 25, 2008, 08:31:20 PM »
Personally, I think this thead is awesome.  It's great to be able to see the course take shape and be able to discuss it.  I, for one, don't think the courses at Bandon need to be marketed in any way - they speak for themselves. 

I truly hope some of these posts don't discourage George, Tom, and the rest of the guys from sharing more. 

This is great stuff, in my opinion.

Scott
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

henrye

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #111 on: February 25, 2008, 08:33:39 PM »
Why have so many bushes and gorse been removed?  The place looks a bit like a moonscape.  Is the idea to clear out almost all the vegetation and then replant it later?  Trying to understand the process.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #112 on: February 25, 2008, 09:00:37 PM »
HenryE,

you might first want to ask what those invasive, exotic gorse plants were doing there in the first place that overran the site and the entire stretch of Oregon coastline since they were brought there in 1873 by settler George Bennett from Ireland and established in the name of coastal dunes stabilization. They are the local equivalent to Southern kudzu or Australian cane toads -- without predator or constraints. Gorse, while pretty when in bloom, is also highly volatile -- flammable. The oily bush ignites and spreads into a wildfire, and at least twice burned the town of Bandon to the ground. What predators and checks to growth that exist in Scotland and Ireland are not there in Oregon.

Part of the environmental mandate for the Bandon Dunes Resort was gorse eradication. The monostand reduces biodiversity and is an ecological disaster. So on habitat and safety grounds it needed to be cut back, and as Tom Jefferson can tell you, the maintenance crew at Bandon regularly cuts back 20+ acres of the stuff a year that's growing back -- this just to keep things in check.

One first vew and covered with gorse, the interior bowl of about 230-acres in which most of Old Macdonald sits appeared to have precious little contour. But with the gorse thinned out and cut back dramatically, the underlying terrain proved itself to be ideal for golf features.  Lots of scattered pines were left standing, by the way. But the gorse, once shaved back, reveals perfect ground for golf.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 09:10:14 PM by Brad Klein »

Kyle Harris

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #113 on: February 25, 2008, 09:07:52 PM »
You are a lucky man Kyle.  I pay money to get that work out in far less pleasant surroundings.

James B

I once joked to Scott Anderson about that. From the time we played golf with Wayne and Sully at Huntingdon Valley (which was the beginning of my time in this side of the business) until now I've lost and kept off about 30 pounds. I told Scott midway through the season that people pay a lot of money for results like that, and here I was getting paid to do it.

Kyle

have you worked at club yet that primarily mow greens with triplex units?  What is the average size of the greenstaff at that club compared to the hand-mower staff?  I have never seen an overweight hand-mower but I do see them on triplexes, rough mowers and fairway mowers.  Do you need to wear special shoes when you are hand-mowing the greens?

I think I will use 'photoshop' and shrink those photos of you from 2 years ago by 30%, so I can update the photo.  My guess is that Sully and Wayne haven't changed (I haven't).  ;D

James B

James,

I'm at one now actually. In fact, I'm one of 3 people on staff that can actually walk mow and turn the mower correctly. I get to cut our new chipping green because of this but will soon train some others.

We're all in pretty good shape with this crew, mainly because there is plenty of other leg work to do out there.

I wear fairly thick soled and steel toed work boots and have for most of my career. I also have worn spikeless Footjoy teaching shoes.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #114 on: February 25, 2008, 09:48:32 PM »
Brad Klein,

Can infra-red topos see the ground contours thru the gorse, or does it have to be cleared before the contours are revealed ?

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #115 on: February 25, 2008, 09:54:56 PM »
I've looked at the Old Macdonald site for the last 5 years and always thought it was a little on the flat side.  But since the gorse has been cut back and you see the heavy machinery running around on it you can see all the ups and downs.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #116 on: February 25, 2008, 10:31:15 PM »
can we just STOP the talk about motives and marketing crap.  we finally get to see inside the mind of the folks that make the courses we love and then we self implode.  STOP.

team doak, please keep posting pictures and thoughts of your work.  that is why i (and i think many of us) are on this site....to learn.

my only question is, downwind, will you ever be able to keep the shot on the green? 

ok, i have two questions.  will the average golfer ever be able to get out of the right bunker?  at first glance it seems severe.

either way, please keep posting your thoughts on what and most importantly why you build what you build.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #117 on: February 25, 2008, 10:47:25 PM »
Chip, thanks for your nice post, appreciated!

Hole 5 should not often play downwind and if it did it would not be a great problem to stop the ball even if you landed in the middle of the green. The green is deep.

The bunker on the right is deep but not so deep it would be too tough to get out of.  One of the interesting things about that bunker is you will not be jamming into the greenside face. Your shot will be going thru the length of the bunker and will certainly leave you plenty of room from the greenside face.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #118 on: February 25, 2008, 11:20:26 PM »
George,
Thanks for the photos.

Hope we can look forward to more, as aspects of the course are completed.

Great to be able to see the development as it takes place.

It is a very interesting thread and is something we can share even though many of us live so far away.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #119 on: February 26, 2008, 09:11:55 AM »
Brad,

78's or gramaphone cylinders!  Good stuff! Like TEP, mine would be a steady stream of beeps.

Lester

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #120 on: February 26, 2008, 02:10:25 PM »
...off on the left you’ll see Jim Urbina standing where one of the two bunkers on that side of the green will probably be. Holding the flag is the Tom Doak and I am at the back of the green, two thirds to the right.


So who took the picture?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #121 on: February 26, 2008, 03:00:11 PM »
Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

Good post John K...
No wonder many Architects that I know cannot be bothered to post on this site.  I have hundreds of photos and paintings of our work but am always scared of getting ripped or accused of advertising and that statement just proves it...
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #122 on: February 26, 2008, 03:22:25 PM »
Let me express my appreciation for this thread and the participation by architects here this way.

Some of you know that I am an old computer geek. In computer geekdom, there was invented the phenomenon of the newsgroup (also the phenomenon of poor writing by geeks). When this was a new phenomenon, many of the world's top computer geeks participated and answered questions by novices, and held discussions with other geeks on sophisticated topics. Me? I could not be bothered to take time out from my work to participate. Furthermore, I was the last one in my family of otherwise non-computer geeks to own a personal computer. When, I went home from work, I wanted to stay away from what I had been doing all day. This is what amazes me about this thread and the architects that post here. They are willing to go way beyond what I myself was willing to do in my heyday. For that, I am very grateful.

Thanks guys
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2008, 03:43:11 PM »
Brian, why not do what a lot of us do -- ignore the ridiculous and/or insulting posts and just focus on the material that's important? There are going to be cranks and boors posting on any Web, but if you shun them and hone in on the valuable stuff there's a chance that civility can prevail and folks can actually learn something.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2008, 03:50:31 PM »
Brad,

78's or gramaphone cylinders!  Good stuff! Like TEP, mine would be a steady stream of beeps.

Lester

Lester

I had a discussion one day with TEP and Wayne, and it was more like semaphore!  Perhaps that was my influence.


Brian Phillips

please do not be discouraged by the few, for they know not of what they do.

If a picture or drawing can educate one or two, we will be all the better because of you.

James
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)