The Short hole at Old Macdonald:

[Kyle Harris]

You are a lucky man Kyle.  I pay money to get that work out in far less pleasant surroundings.

James B

I once joked to Scott Anderson about that. From the time we played golf with Wayne and Sully at Huntingdon Valley (which was the beginning of my time in this side of the business) until now I've lost and kept off about 30 pounds. I told Scott midway through the season that people pay a lot of money for results like that, and here I was getting paid to do it.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

I understand your perspective on this and believe it or not, I was the only one of the group who questioned if the green really needed to be that big.

However, you're just going to have to get over your questions this time.  It's excessive, but with the purpose of giving the course a unique character.  Mr. Macdonald built very large greens and he is not recorded as giving a crap about how long they took to mow ... and that was in the days where EVERYTHING was walk mowed. 

If the superintendent really objected, then I might reconsider, but we are dealing with Ken Nice and he is the best around, precisely because he is determined to make our design work.  I don't think he would ever say he couldn't do it.  Ken Nice was explaining to me last night that a hydraulic leak on fescue is death and it takes years for resodded greens to heal in properly, so they never take a triplex on the putting surfaces ... so some kid from Oregon is going to curse Urbina every day they mow out there (and get paid to do it).

Paul:  Ken has seen all the greens and believes that we can irrigate them without difficulty.  It helps that he gave up on the need for head-to-head coverage a long time ago.

Adam:  I believe Jim Urbina built that green himself, and the sixth as well.  Brian Slawnik built the third and eighth; Bruce Hepner the fourth and fourteenth; and Brian Schneider the seventh.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

I understand your perspective on this and believe it or not, I was the only one of the group who questioned if the green really needed to be that big.

However, you're just going to have to get over your questions this time.  It's excessive, but with the purpose of giving the course a unique character.  Mr. Macdonald built very large greens and he is not recorded as giving a crap about how long they took to mow ... and that was in the days where EVERYTHING was walk mowed. 

If the superintendent really objected, then I might reconsider, but we are dealing with Ken Nice and he is the best around, precisely because he is determined to make our design work.  I don't think he would ever say he couldn't do it.  Ken Nice was explaining to me last night that a hydraulic leak on fescue is death and it takes years for resodded greens to heal in properly, so they never take a triplex on the putting surfaces ... so some kid from Oregon is going to curse Urbina every day they mow out there (and get paid to do it).

Paul:  Ken has seen all the greens and believes that we can irrigate them without difficulty.  It helps that he gave up on the need for head-to-head coverage a long time ago.

Adam:  I believe Jim Urbina built that green himself, and the sixth as well.  Brian Slawnik built the third and eighth; Bruce Hepner the fourth and fourteenth; and Brian Schneider the seventh.

Tom:

Sorry if I came across as critical - I'm just quite curious as to how much thought went into the scale of these features. I guess I'm trying to pry into the real purpose of the size of the green, and how it matches with the scale and shot requirements you are setting out to design. I'd really like to hear all that instead of just gushing over how great the place is.

I consider architecture and maintenance to be mostly about making choices and compromises, and I'd like to hear how these choices and compromises were reached.

By the way, I'd consider it great fun to walk mow a green of that size and scale - I miss cutting the Biarritz at Mountain Lake.

[Tom Jefferson]

Kyle, and others;

To add to the conversation about green sizes, irrigation spacing, and mowing requirements, the following:
 
The 11th green at Bandon Trails is approximately 14,000 sq. ft. in size, with all heads located outside of the putting surface.  I believe those heads are the standard spacing at Bandon Dunes, approximately 65' or so apart, on a triangular pattern.  It seems reasonable that Ken Nice and Colin Jenkins, the irrigation installer, will adequately irrigate the Old Mac 5th green while keeping the heads outside the perimeter of the green.

The large practice green at the practice center is approximately one acre in size, and does have irrigation heads within it's perimeter.  When we walk mow that green (on occasion) it takes two staffers 50 minutes to complete it.  Referencing Tom Doak's conversation with Ken Nice about triplex mowers and hydrolic spills, there is a streak of sod on that practice green that has been in place for 5 years now, still looking different from the surrounding turf.  It was put in place after a hydrolic leak from a conventional triplex unit left a streak 150 ft. long, across that green, and is one more shining example of why we walk mow all the greens at the resort.  (The exception is that same practice green, which we mow with a electric triplex....having learned our lesson about hydrolic spills!).

Lastly, one more terrific quality of fine fescues is their slow growth habit, and thus our regimen at the resort of, throughout the growing season (mar-nov), mowing only every other day (and rolling on the alternating days).  This quality is a labor saving benefit of fescues and allows us the freedom to commit to walk mowing greens, regardless of their size and time requirements.

Hope this helps.

Tom

[Peter Pallotta]

George, Tom, Brad -

If this is the 5th hole, can you tell us what the 6th hole will be? (I couldn't find the thread from a while back where Tom listed the holes)

Also, is the 6th green going to look absolutely tiny in comparison, just to mess with golfers' heads?

Peter

[James Bennett]

You are a lucky man Kyle.  I pay money to get that work out in far less pleasant surroundings.

James B

I once joked to Scott Anderson about that. From the time we played golf with Wayne and Sully at Huntingdon Valley (which was the beginning of my time in this side of the business) until now I've lost and kept off about 30 pounds. I told Scott midway through the season that people pay a lot of money for results like that, and here I was getting paid to do it.

Kyle

have you worked at club yet that primarily mow greens with triplex units?  What is the average size of the greenstaff at that club compared to the hand-mower staff?  I have never seen an overweight hand-mower but I do see them on triplexes, rough mowers and fairway mowers.  Do you need to wear special shoes when you are hand-mowing the greens?

I think I will use 'photoshop' and shrink those photos of you from 2 years ago by 30%, so I can update the photo.  My guess is that Sully and Wayne haven't changed (I haven't). 

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak, George Bahto & Brad Klein,

How much of an influence on the size and shape of the greens is the WIND ?

On this hole ?

On a hole by hole basis ?

And, for the course in general ?

[Mark Hissey]

Here is what we saw from the tee box area earlier this year:




I’ll repeat (without his permission) what Brad wrote about what we saw and thought about that day.

“At one point, the five-person committee sat along a ridge overlooking the likely site of Macdonald’s famed Short Hole - a modest par-3 to a complicated green.

We were simply looking around until Urbina got up, drew a diagram in the dirt and asked if we were sure that the high handicapper could find a safe path to a well-guarded putting surface.

There began a discussion that an architecture junkie lives for; 45 minutes worth, of No. 11 at St. Andrews, No. 6 at National Golf Links and No.3 at Yeamans Hall. It was detailed talk, about the depth of the little depression and the falloff to the rear, as well as the way in which the green would look big but play to a series of small targets if properly tied together. We sat there, variously drawing with sticks and fingers and boots. Satisfied that we had made some progress, Urbina, with a single sweep of his foot, erased a graduate seminar’s worth if work and simply said, “Next hole.”

Jimmy with the root rake?

[George_Bahto]

Peter: The 6th on Old Macdonald is inspired by the 14th St. Andrews and is a hole where many of us believe Charlie Macdonald missed important strategies. In my opinion the closest he/they came was the Long hole on the Lido course. In most versions of this hole, they totally missed the boat.

Tom has been very adamant about faithfully capturing these important neglected features.

There are elements of the hole that are still in flux but as of Friday when I left, most of the features on the last half of the hole were about “right.”

You will find this version of the Long hole will get your attention.

[Peter Pallotta]

George - thanks for that, and for the extra details.

I always assumed that you gents would be paying as much homage to the holes that had inspired Macdonald as to those that he'd actually built.

Peter   

[Ryan Farrow]

Kyle:

I understand your perspective on this and believe it or not, I was the only one of the group who questioned if the green really needed to be that big.

However, you're just going to have to get over your questions this time.  It's excessive, but with the purpose of giving the course a unique character.  Mr. Macdonald built very large greens and he is not recorded as giving a crap about how long they took to mow ... and that was in the days where EVERYTHING was walk mowed. 

If the superintendent really objected, then I might reconsider, but we are dealing with Ken Nice and he is the best around, precisely because he is determined to make our design work.  I don't think he would ever say he couldn't do it.  Ken Nice was explaining to me last night that a hydraulic leak on fescue is death and it takes years for resodded greens to heal in properly, so they never take a triplex on the putting surfaces ... so some kid from Oregon is going to curse Urbina every day they mow out there (and get paid to do it).

Paul:  Ken has seen all the greens and believes that we can irrigate them without difficulty.  It helps that he gave up on the need for head-to-head coverage a long time ago.

Adam:  I believe Jim Urbina built that green himself, and the sixth as well.  Brian Slawnik built the third and eighth; Bruce Hepner the fourth and fourteenth; and Brian Schneider the seventh.

Tom:

Sorry if I came across as critical - I'm just quite curious as to how much thought went into the scale of these features. I guess I'm trying to pry into the real purpose of the size of the green, and how it matches with the scale and shot requirements you are setting out to design. I'd really like to hear all that instead of just gushing over how great the place is.

I consider architecture and maintenance to be mostly about making choices and compromises, and I'd like to hear how these choices and compromises were reached.

By the way, I'd consider it great fun to walk mow a green of that size and scale - I miss cutting the Biarritz at Mountain Lake.

At least they are not going to cut it 4 X's a day. After mowing the 9th at Oakmont this would be child's play. On any given day we had teams of 2 cutting 3 different directions at one time.... plus a triplex mower. So If my math is correct that would be 7 people mowing  a green at one time. 6 walk mowers, 1 triplex and ZERO ground up appendages. That alone should have been reason enough to give John Zimmers super of the year. We only mow in pairs out there but I would guess it would take almost an hour to mow that green by hand. Those were days. 

[John Moore II]

I must say that this hole and the views in general look quite striking. If its like Pac Dunes, it will be quite the work.

[George_Bahto]

Mark: that was the "World Famous" Tony Russell on the excavator!

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, George, Brad, et. al.: how much did your team shape that green, and how much of the contours were already there when you started to build it? 

[Ryan Farrow]

Just one question, why remove so much of the gorse? I thought that I heard a while back, the only reason the course was given the permits to build was to control/eliminate it. Is this the answer to my question?

[Bryan Izatt]

When I read in an earlier post that the committee of five was looking over the hole, I was reminded of the old saying about a camel being a horse designed by a committee.     How's the committee approach to design coming along?

For a green that's around 45 yards deep and 45 yards across, does the bunkering serve a functional purpose, or is it part of the template?  What percentage of the golfer demographic at Bandon do you suppose will miss a green of that size on any given day?  Even in the wind.  Should the percentage that hit the horrid shot that misses green high right be further punished with a 12 foot deep bunker?  Will the edges of the green feed into the bunkers reducing the effective size of the green?

[Tom_Doak]

For a green that's around 45 yards deep and 45 yards across, does the bunkering serve a functional purpose, or is it part of the template?

The green is more like 30 yards deep and 60 across.  With a cross wind from the right, the bunker on the right will be a nasty hazard for holes on the right third of the green.  The two bunkers on the left guard the left pin shown.  The middle of the green is amply defended by contour.

  What percentage of the golfer demographic at Bandon do you suppose will miss a green of that size on any given day?  Even in the wind. 

I'll bet 30-40% of golfers miss the green on any given day.  It won't be easy to judge the distance in the wind.  Not too many will miss wide if they aim for the middle of the green, but aiming for the middle with the flag in the corner will be asking for a three-putt, or worse.

   Should the percentage that hit the horrid shot that misses green high right be further punished with a 12 foot deep bunker? 

The penal nature of that bunker will scare most people away from it.  Horrid shots will likely come up short because of the wind.

Will the edges of the green feed into the bunkers reducing the effective size of the green? 

They really don't much.  The right-hand pin position is the only flattish one there but it doesn't feed right.  Approach shots likely won't feed off into the left bunkers often (maybe some into the far left bunker, in a crosswind).  You could, however, putt into the front left bunker from the back of the green if you're not careful.


Ryan:  Gorse control is a big deal at Bandon Dunes Resort.  The maintenance staff would just as soon kill it all.  Jim and I want to save little bits here and there for contrast, but the little bits keep spreading aggressively.

[Tom Jefferson]

Ryan;

Regarding gorse control at the resort; you can, coincidentally, see gorse removal in progress in the contrasting photos.  In the oldest photo, the largest mound in the distance is the 16th tee at Pac Dunes.  The more recent photo shows the gorse removed from the dune slopes that surround that tee....one can see in it's place the dark green hydroseeded fescue.

By late spring that fescue will begin to establish a foothold on the slopes...and I am going to guess that there might be some beachgrass added to it.  Jeff Sutherland, the superintendent at Pac Dunes, and Eric Johnson, supt. at Bandon Dunes, are committed to a program of gorse removal designed to balance the relentless encroachment of gorse with the architectural and aesthetic intent of the golf holes.

As Tom mentioned, gorse is desirable in the right place and for the right reasons;
our management need at the resort is to find the proper balance, and keep that stuff where it belongs!

[Andy Silis]

I nominate this as "Thread of the Year"!

Thanks to Tom, George, Brad and everyone involved for contributing!

This is what makes GCA THE BEST!!!!!!!!!

[Brad Klein]

I shudder at the volume of email/threads etc. that will develop over all 18 holes. I'm very happy to leave Doak (and Bahto) to do the explaining in detail. Suffice it to say that Doak and Urbina along with owner Mike Keiser have been extremely generous with their time and patience in opening up this process to discussion and debate. Most of what goes on is walking, talking, pointing and thinking.

All I can say is that very little seems to escape them/us before a move is made. I have great respect for their willingness to think through and plan and also revise as needed. Some architects plan everything out in advance and then impose their plan in the field. I'm not sure that's easier or harder to do. In any case, Doak & Urbina work differently, and with a thorough knowledge of materials, construction timetables, budgets, equipment functionality (D-5s, excavators, backhoes) maintenance and playability.

As the process has been unfolding since I first walked the site in July 2006, the routing, design and field implementation at every stage have been moving towards a course that is better, bolder and more interesting than any of us first thought possible. It's very exciting stuff, and gets more so each day. And that excitement was evident in how Doak and Urbina along with Bruce Hepner and Brian Schneider responded and worked during our latest foray there last week.

[Bill_McBride]

Will the hole play mostly either into the wind or down wind?

How does 17,000 SF compare to the greens at NGLA?  I think it might be half again as big as #6 at NGLA.  It's hard to compare to the greens at the Old Course because they are mostly double greens, but #9 might be that big at TOC.

This hole will definitely test the player's short iron proficiency, as CBM wanted it to.  It's a beautiful thing, look forward to seeing it, hopefully next summer.

[Tim Taylor]

I've said this before on here, and I think I'm paraphrasing something Tom Paul once said - huge greens are a great defense on a short par 3. You easily get suckered into being happy with a "GIR". Then walk over chapped after three jacking.

I think I'll hold off on my maiden Bandon trip until Old Macdonald opens.

Tim

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone with half a ball in this fight would go see the course under construction.  It is selfish to wait until it opens.

[JMorgan]

Tom/Jim/George/Brad,

What is your latest estimate for Opening Day? 

Any top-secret GCA.com preview/walk-thrus planned?

[Mark Smolens]

My first trip to Bandon will be in October with an Illinois PGA pro-am event.  Do/will they permit interlopers to simply wander around looking at the work being done?