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Mike Sweeney

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2008, 07:37:39 AM »

The one thing that's not a surprise is that even with a lot of rain in January, it's nice to be back in Bandon and working among friends, and you can bet that will have a positive effect on the finished product.

Tom, George and Brad,

As a preemptive strike to the forthcoming Jaka rant about the Golfweek conspiracy theory around Old MacDonald, let's start a new list called the "Can't Be Rated By Golfweek List."  :D

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2008, 09:11:36 AM »
Tom,

excuse my ignorance as I don't know MacDonalds work personally. Is the hockey stick shaped bunker on the right taken from one of his designs? I was wondering, as to me the right side looks great as it is and I can't see how adding a bunker will improve either the tactical playing of the hole or the visual.

What were your thoughts and desires with this hole?

Jon

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2008, 09:30:18 AM »

The one thing that's not a surprise is that even with a lot of rain in January, it's nice to be back in Bandon and working among friends, and you can bet that will have a positive effect on the finished product.

Tom, George and Brad,

As a preemptive strike to the forthcoming Jaka rant about the Golfweek conspiracy theory around Old MacDonald, let's start a new list called the "Can't Be Rated By Golfweek List."  :D

I will admit when I am wrong.  This picture proves the team can be put to good use.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2008, 09:40:25 AM »

Not a short hole but Macdonald built and Hanse/Bahto restored a hockey stick bunker on the #7 reverse redan at Sleepy Hollow. ;D
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 04:23:10 PM by corey miller »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2008, 09:55:29 AM »
The hockey-stick reference is just about the shape of the bunker and has nothing to do with anything Macdonald ever referred to.

Weather? ..........  on our first day there, Wednesday last, the sun shining and the temperature got into the middle 60's !!!!

.....  and as an added bonus, that evening the eclipse was in full view in a cloudless sky .....  (an omen of good things to come, we thought)

"templates -we don't need no stinkin' templates"
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2008, 10:14:55 AM »
Looks great and a hole where most of the trouble is in the putter, reminds me off the 11th at TOC a bit.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 11:42:56 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2008, 11:23:12 AM »
Morning;

Just a reminder that while Mr. Bahto does in fact correctly identify the seasonal wind as from left to right, the seasonal wind in the summer months is from the opposite direction, strong and constant.

It's been a pleasure so far to watch the routing, shapes, and holes emerge from the land, and in particular to discover, as Tom suggested, the tremendous natural ground features out there.

Raining just now, but warmer lately, and a sense that a very strong winter is close to being behind us.

Tom
the pres

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2008, 11:30:00 AM »
Love it. What an adventure this will be! Thanks for the pic, George.

Kyle Harris

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2008, 11:49:52 AM »
Fine, I'll say it.

Just under half an acre seems extremely excessive for a single use putting green on such a short hole. I understand the idea is to have several greens within greens and to make for difficult and interesting putts but I can't help but wonder if the tail was wagging the dog a bit here.

Why so big? Were there not more economic (in terms of green size and maintained area) methods of posing the same challenges?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 11:53:56 AM by Kyle Harris »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2008, 12:12:33 PM »
Here is what we saw from the tee box area earlier this year:




I’ll repeat (without his permission) what Brad wrote about what we saw and thought about that day.

“At one point, the five-person committee sat along a ridge overlooking the likely site of Macdonald’s famed Short Hole - a modest par-3 to a complicated green.

We were simply looking around until Urbina got up, drew a diagram in the dirt and asked if we were sure that the high handicapper could find a safe path to a well-guarded putting surface.

There began a discussion that an architecture junkie lives for; 45 minutes worth, of No. 11 at St. Andrews, No. 6 at National Golf Links and No.3 at Yeamans Hall. It was detailed talk, about the depth of the little depression and the falloff to the rear, as well as the way in which the green would look big but play to a series of small targets if properly tied together. We sat there, variously drawing with sticks and fingers and boots. Satisfied that we had made some progress, Urbina, with a single sweep of his foot, erased a graduate seminar’s worth of work and simply said, “Next hole.”
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 11:03:22 AM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2008, 01:20:27 PM »


It is about 17,000 square feet total, has a hockey-stick shaped bunker on the right where you will see Brad Klein standing some 10-12 feet below the putting surface.

To show the scale of this green, off on the left you’ll see Jim Urbina standing where one of the two bunkers on that side of the green will probably be. Holding the flag is the Tom Doak and I am at the back of the green, two thirds to the right.

Yes, the undulations are real and even though the green is not quite finished they should remain as you see them here.

You might be happy 3-putting on occasion.

The prevailing seasonal wind is from the right.

Thanks to George for posting the photo.  At age 78 he is our tech guy!

The funny thing is, we've built six greens and I don't think this is the biggest one.  Our Biarritz green at the eighth hole is 74 yards from front to back.

I must say that I'm very pleased with the start we've gotten out here.  The routing is probably different than I would have come up with if we hadn't been trying to apply Macdonald's ideas, so it sets us up to build some features unlike what we've built before.  We are certainly not feeling too constrained by templates.  We are just taking some great ideas and running with them.

By far the best surprise is that the contours of the ground (with the gorse cleared away for fairways) are really outstanding -- there is a great variety of stuff, from big ten-foot swells you have to hit over to reach the seventh fairway, to wrinkly undulations on the sixth and ninth fairways of the scale you'd find on The Old Course, to those big undulations in the fifth green that are pictured.

The one thing that's not a surprise is that even with a lot of rain in January, it's nice to be back in Bandon and working among friends, and you can bet that will have a positive effect on the finished product.

Most exciting posts I've seen in quite awhile, thank you very much for sharing this. I hope you're able to share more in the future!

EDIT: Wow, just saw George's most recent photo post. The development of this story will be an ongoing gift for everyone on the site - thanks again for sharing.

Can I now claim to be a founding member of the OMTBB Club? :)

« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 01:26:49 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

CHrisB

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2008, 01:50:47 PM »


Right under the gorse-covered hill in the distance (top-right of the picture) there is a flag. Is that #15 at PacDunes?

How close will Old Mac get to PacDunes? How close to #15 green, #15 fairway, #14 green, #14 tee?

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2008, 02:00:48 PM »
I removed the small pine, right front, so you might see that bunker a little better.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2008, 03:05:35 PM »
George,

That green is so cool!

Are these greens going to be grown with fescues or bent?

Have you decided on what range of speed they will be rolling?

Do those considerations weigh into the size and the contours that you are using in building these greens?


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2008, 04:18:28 PM »
Bradley:

It is easy to assume that the greens here will be maintained the same as at the other courses at Bandon Dunes Resort -- fescue with a speed range of 8.5 to 11 depending on conditions -- so we can visualize how putts will roll accordingly.

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2008, 04:31:15 PM »
Chris B.,

Yes, that is the flag of Pac's 15th green. 

The 6th hole of Old Mac runs parallel and in the opposite direction to Pac 15, approximately 100 yards distant, separated by some rough, low dunes, and gorse.

#7 is similarly east of #14 at Pac.

I believe that's as close as the two courses are to one another.

Tom J
the pres

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2008, 04:37:32 PM »
The green is close enough to your walk at Pacific that you will be able to recognize a friend without knowing what they are wearing.  It should be an excellent advertisement to get the Pacific players to skip Trails and come on over.

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2008, 05:14:21 PM »
Which associate(s) shaped the green?
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2008, 07:45:02 PM »
The green is close enough to your walk at Pacific that you will be able to recognize a friend without knowing what they are wearing.  It should be an excellent advertisement to get the Pacific players to skip Trails and come on over.

In fact, if you're willing to forego the last 3 holes of Pac Dunes, u can sneak in an extra 10 holes of golf free ;)

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2008, 07:53:24 PM »
.....but how about irrigation head spacing?....how far apart and are there any in the green? :)

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2008, 08:07:37 PM »
George, you have my permission. By the way, was that "before photo" really this year? Or wasn't that from last June or so, before the gorse was cleared.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 08:13:10 PM by Brad Klein »

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2008, 09:01:53 PM »
Brad, you are correct it wasn't from earlier this year - we are now (February 2008) in "earlier this year"  -  the quote from your article was from the August 2007 issue of GW    ...(it's not easy getting old, you know)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 09:05:18 PM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Kyle Harris

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2008, 09:24:56 PM »
.....but how about irrigation head spacing?....how far apart and are there any in the green? :)



And to add to that... a triplex is going to have to drive 0.8 miles to cut that thing, and that's without factoring in turns, overlap and the clean up pass.

...a walk mower would be over 2.5 miles!!!!!! Considering the average walking speed is approximately 3 miles per hour - that's almost 50 minutes to cut the thing solo!

For comparison, the biarritz at Mountain Lake took me about 20 minutes to walk mow alone, and was just under a mile as per my one pedometer at a 3 foot pace.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 09:26:47 PM by Kyle Harris »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2008, 09:29:09 PM »
Kyle, that was good perspective I bet not many of us think about. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2008, 09:34:02 PM »
You are a lucky man Kyle.  I pay money to get that work out in far less pleasant surroundings.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)