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Bryan Izatt

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A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« on: February 21, 2008, 01:01:23 PM »
This is a modern course that was renovated by the original architect not too long after it was originally built.  As an example, here's one hole that was "adjusted" presumably to make it more playable for the target player demographic.  In any case, is the new hole better, worse or no different from the original.

It's a 450 yard par 4.  Carrying the centreline bunker requires a carry of about 250 yards.  The tee shot is uphill maybe 30 feet from tee to left of the bunker area.  The renovation added a lot of of length (maybe 50 yards) to the centreline bunker and brought the left hand back closer to the tee.  Strangely, there doesn't appear to be much if any length difference from playing either the left or right fairway. 

First, an aerial of the old hole:



A ground based picture of the tee shot on the revised hole.




Mike Nuzzo

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2008, 01:14:50 PM »
were all those homes on the hill when it opened?
It is pretty hard to see much besides them...
At least it makes sence why the bunker is so busy looking.
Did they bring the fairway forward because very few went that way?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2008, 01:17:48 PM »
I guess I don't see what makes this anything besides an aesthetic change?

Joe Hancock

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2008, 01:37:26 PM »
Yea, those structures in the back ruin everything..... ;)


" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil McDade

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2008, 01:48:15 PM »
Bryan:

I just have to say, I always enjoy these types of threads. Keep them coming.

I'd argue, just based on the two photos, that the renovation didn't make the hole worse, and may have made it more "playable" for more players.

I assume that's the white tee just in front of the camera position. What's the carry from that tee (roughly) to the end of the centerline bunker? I can't see much advantage to playing that left fairway, other than being able to hug the far left side of the fairway, which looks like it might open the green up for the approach. But the land doesn't look conducive to that kind of shot.

With my game, my aiming point on the tee would be the tip of the bunker, and work a fade toward it and hoped I could keep it on the right fairway.


BVince

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2008, 01:49:39 PM »
Its interesting that the overhead photo resembles number 2 at Kinloch, which is a wonderful hole.
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Bryan Izatt

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2008, 01:51:27 PM »
were all those homes on the hill when it opened?
It is pretty hard to see much besides them...
At least it makes sence why the bunker is so busy looking.
Did they bring the fairway forward because very few went that way?

I'm guessing the houses are contemporaneous with the course.  I'm sure the architect knew they'd be there eventually.  You find $10M+ houses distracting?  :o

Perhaps the new bunker is a luxury elite bunker rather than just busy.

I'm guessing that few would have taken the left hand option because it used to require a longer carry and is visually more uphill.

What I don't get, apart from the aesthetic improvement, is why the course owner would pay the architect more money to revise a hole where the revisions appear to have so little impact on the playability of the hole.  I suppose bringing the left fairway back towards the tee provides a much wider fairway target for the average golfer, but the centreline bunker is punitive and extending it back toward the tee by 50 yards removes any option of laying up to it for the lesser player.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2008, 02:03:42 PM »
Phil,

The carry from the white tee would be around 230.  It's farther than it looks.  I think the scale of the surrounding makes the distance appear less than they really are.  A 230 yard uphill carry is beyonf the abilities of any other than pretty good golfers.

Upon first playing the hole I guessed, based on the visual cues that the hole bent left and that the left fairway, being higher, would provide a better angle and a shorter second shot.  Wrong.  The second shot is equidistant from left or right fairway.  From the left you can miss the green left and kick it down off the bank onto the green.  But the shot is blind unless you're really long off the tee.  There are bushes up the left side (hiding the cart path???) that obscure the green.  From either side it a challenging 200 yard shot to the green with immeadiate death right.  Playing from the right fairway probably provides a better angle to bail out away from the barannca right.

My playing strategy was the same as yours.  Aim at the bunker, figuring a pull or a fade will happen.  Nutted it straight up the middle of the bunker - who'd believe I could hit a 10 yard wide obstacle in a 100 yard wide field.  ???

Bryon,

I doubt anyone would mistake it for Kinloch on the ground.

Garland Bayley

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2008, 04:27:43 PM »
Bryan:
...
With my game, my aiming point on the tee would be the tip of the bunker, and work a fade toward it and hoped I could keep it on the right fairway.



Me too. Except I would hope to keep it on the left fairway. They improved the hole for lefties.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2008, 04:56:52 PM »
What I don't get, apart from the aesthetic improvement, is why the course owner would pay the architect more money to revise a hole where the revisions appear to have so little impact on the playability of the hole.  

Was it in the contract?
If any changes are made the designer gets to remove their name?
Maybe it was a bit of an experiment and they wanted the archtiect to work with them in the future too.
How do you know they paid them more money and how much?
Maybe the superintendent oversaw the project with minimal input.
Cheers

Joe
I didn't say ruin....
I said pretty hard to see besides - and I stand by that from an artistic sence.
 :'(
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Joe Hancock

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2008, 05:37:50 PM »
Mike,

No weeping allowed...a little good hearted chop busting is a healthy thing.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

David Druzisky

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2008, 06:40:08 PM »
It's Pelican Hill #7.  I can not remember the green area?  I do remember it was often a long 2nd shot with death all along the right.  O think the old version didn't do much scoring resistence wise but it made the hole long and tougher on the shorter player.  Maybe the longer players will have a little toguher time now just blasting it over the bunker?

Brian, how did the course play/look?

Joel_Stewart

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2008, 10:15:48 PM »
To answer your question, its a bad example.  Fazio redoing a Fazio.   Millions on top of millions, money is not an object.  Its basically an attempt to make the course prettier and more lush. 




Jeremy Rivando

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2008, 12:33:56 AM »
At first glance I would have said I liked the original more than the reno'd version.

The ground photo makes it appear that the left side would provide a better look and angle into the green, as well as a better opportunity to run the shot in from the left side.   If Bryan's input is correct I would ask if there is a way to alter the bushes in front of the cart path so they don't impede the view of the green therefore rewarding the aggressive player choosing the left fairway.  That way the left side could have maintained is offset position compared to the right and tempt the longer hitter to go for a narrower and partially blind fairway.

I think the bunker is now more penal on the average player due to it's length and overall size, why punish the shorter hitter and give them no chance to reach the green in two?

RJ_Daley

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2008, 01:03:00 AM »
I look at it as a "line of charm" situation.  At 230 to carry the slightly uphill center line bunker, but a tee ball flirting on either side, makes it a big time challenge and temptation to take it right over the bunker with any margin of error left or right working in your favor if you don't quite make the carry, and  turns the whole thing into a three shotter for most to get to the green for someone that don't make the carry. 

The left side grading in the near zone front and left of the bunker is significantly graded on the upgrade.  Balls landing there aren't going to roll out much, yet the approach and the left side approach is more favorable from the left as it is slightly down to the green with no hazard as the right side approach has and apparently all along the right side is dangerous. 

A safer attempt to stay right of the centerline B is challenged on the next shot with the whole right side slope to rough and guarding B.   The reno seems only to make that center line B even more of a flirtation with a line of charm.  I like the hole before or after, but after seems better.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Moore II

Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2008, 02:07:35 AM »
Supposing the angle of the fairway away from the bunker was not changed in the renovation, I would say that the renov is maybe a bit better. It would seem to bring the left fairway into play more for average players, and from the aerial, the left side would seem to be the choice side to play into the green from. In that way, I think the renov is better since it makes the hole 'easier' if only marginally.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2008, 04:13:56 AM »
It's Pelican Hill #7.  I can not remember the green area?  I do remember it was often a long 2nd shot with death all along the right.  O think the old version didn't do much scoring resistence wise but it made the hole long and tougher on the shorter player.  Maybe the longer players will have a little toguher time now just blasting it over the bunker?

Brian, how did the course play/look?

It is indeed the 7th at Pelican Hill.  The green has a lot of movement and was difficult for me to read.  As I mentioned earlier there is a kick plate to the left of the green that helps shots hit to that, the safe side.  Definite death all along the right side. Resistance to scoring comes from the length and uphill nature I think for most players.  Would it resist scoring by tour pros - I doubt it.  Most could blow it over the bunker and get some additional roll over the rise.

For context, I played it in three hours just before dark while my wife and daughter were shopping and before taking the red-eye back to the great white north.  So, it was a bit of a rush, but a worthwhile experience. 

I thought the course looked good - photogenic even (not even counting the ocean views).  There's no housing internal to the course and the bordering housing is not in play as far as I could see.  The fairway were a bit ragged - semi dormant bermuda I think.  I liked the look of the bunkers and they were deep enough with soft enough sand to be penal.  The green complexes were interesting and challenging without being over the top.  There were some neat skyline greens and equally neat short par 4's.  The 3's were less impressive as a group.  I liked many of the holes including 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14 and 17.  The playing corridors provided enough room so as not to be claustrophobic, but if you got too far off line it was death.  There was actual rough on most holes - a mixture of fescue and rye, I think.  It could certainly be tough to play out of.

As to playing it, I was playing blind.  They don't provide a course or hole maps.  The range finder they provide only measures to the pin.  There are a number of blind tee shots.  No doubt there were strategic options, but in my quick one-time play there was no time to figure that out.  One aspect I did figure out was that I couldn't carry any of the bunkers that looked like I might be able to challenge them.  The scale of the property is such that the distances to traps is deceptive.  You'd have to be a long hitter (like you, as I recall) to carry some of the corners or fly the trap on the 7th for instance.  It provided a relatively fair challenge with the greens providing some significant defence to scoring.  That said, it would be a terrible course for my wife - too many forced carries and uphill holes.  And, of course, it would be a tough walking course with the elevation changes.

I'd certainly go back to play - but only at the twilight rate. The service, befitting a high end CCFAD, was way too obtrusive and fawning for me, but I guess that's got nothing to do with architecture and such.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2008, 04:20:45 AM »
To answer your question, its a bad example.  Fazio redoing a Fazio.   Millions on top of millions, money is not an object.  Its basically an attempt to make the course prettier and more lush. 





Joel,

That seems like a reasonably dogmatic answer - it's a Fazio, therefore it's expensive, therefore it's bad.  ??? As I understand the revisions, a lot of it had to do with improving the playing conditions as well as making the holes more playable to the target demographic.  I'm sure the course was expensive to build - it's a tough piece of property.  But spending money to build a course is not inherently bad, IMHO. For me it was an interesting and challenging round - I try not to be distracted by perceptions of cost to build, architect, or even the tony neighbourhood that it resides in.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2008, 09:20:50 AM »
I'm not saying because its Fazio its bad, but Fazio rebuilding a Fazio is only a slight remake.  Tom Fazios ego would never allow him to admit to a mistake.  As an example, Pete Dye did such a bad job at Carmel Valley Ranch he came in a number of years later and rebuilt the course for free.

IMHO, the taget demographic is not changing at Pelican Hill which I have played a number of times.   It may be they are targeting the billionares to push out the millionares, but either way this course is built for the well healed.   The old course was still a challenge but it probably neglected some maintance issues and wanted a fresh new look so they threw out the baby to change the water.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2008, 11:59:14 AM »
Joel,

From what I've read the following are the "renovations" that were undertaken:

"* Re-turfing of fairways and tees with Tifway II hybrid bermuda to achieve a consistent look, texture and playing surface year-round, while also eliminating the need for annual overseeding.

* Converting roughs to a cool-season blend of tall fescue and rye, to contrast with the Tifway II hybrid bermuda on the fairways in color and texture, adding definition.

* Adding 25 new bunkers and adjusting bunkers on many holes to enhance strategy or aesthetics.

* Recapturing vistas framed by the natural environment by adopting lower-growing and native plants.

* Installing a water-quality system to conserve and recycle water from both the courses and the resort that environmental experts say is the most advanced on the California coast.

* Sand-capping high-traffic areas to create better turf quality.

* Expanding collars on some greens to give golfers more choices on how to play shots.

* Rebuilding tees on both courses, including a new sand base and resurfacing with Bermuda.

* A number of new tees to enhance the playing strategy or aesthetics and to add 200 yards to the courses.

* Re-contouring fairways to enhance drainage and resurfacing cart paths with a new concrete developed to buffer cracking." (from Cybergolf.com)

Sounds like more than a "slight remake".  And, they all sound like useful improvements to the playability of the course. 

Do you know that this work was a result of "mistakes" in the original build?  Do you know that Fazio was asked to admit a mistake?  Or that he did or didn't?  Or that he supervised the reworking for free or for millions as you alluded to above?

No doubt the courses are targeted to the well heeled.  It fits the neighbourhood it's in.  The over-the-top smarmy service/clubhouse/driving range (with Nike Platinum one balls) doesn't necessarily have to detract from the actual course and playing experience.  Indeed, a course Hammy could play when he's away from home.

So, after 10 years they "renovated" the course.  Is that so unusual?  Perhaps, as you say,  the maintenance suffered in those 10 years, but that's not Fazio's fault.  I fail to understand how they "threw out the baby to change the water".  Could you elaborate on how the course is worse than it was.  The renovations all sound good to me.  The result is a fine course.  Probably not all-world, but pretty damn good.


Philippe Binette

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2008, 12:04:07 PM »
I don't know about that central bunker...

The hole might make more sense if the bunker was smaller and was surrounded by fairway.

The bunker in itself has to much small details for the huge scale of the hole.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 12:19:00 PM »
I'm not sure either.  If it was smaller and there was fairway all around it, it might better allow a lay-up short of it, but that'd leave a blind 200+ yard second.  Probably not an attractive option.  Maybe the bunker needs to be moved more downrange if you want to provide the lay-up option.  In any event the hole is hard in either the original configuration, or the current one.

David Stamm

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2008, 05:05:13 PM »
The house that can be seen in line with the middle bunker in Bryan's photo is just crazy inside.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2008, 07:28:02 PM »
It's certainly noticeable from the outside.  I started wondering if it was two attached houses, but no, I guess it just one the size of two mansions.  Twenty million dollar range?  I presume it's not your house David - else you wouldn't call it crazy inside.  Probably owned by somebody in big pharma, insurance or law that can afford their own health insurance.

David Stamm

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Re: A Renovation Example ..... Good or Bad
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2008, 07:39:33 PM »
No, Bryan, it's not mine. :'( It belongs to a man that invents very popular video games with a medieval theme (Warcraft?), thus the whole house has a castle decor throughout. The house is still being finished and has been around $30mill from what I've been told. A woodcraftsman that I have done business with has spent the last 4 years working on the house with his crew and has another 8 months left. The main hallway that splits the first floor would rival some of the naves I've seen in the smaller duomos and churches in Europe. The wife's walk-in clsoet has about $200k in wood in it!
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

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