[Craig Sweet]

Or dying...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/nyregion/21golf.html?hp

[Tim_Cronin]

I'm guessing golf lasts longer than the newspaper biz, even the good gray Times. And I'm in the newspaper biz.

[Jason Connor]

I'm guessing golf lasts longer than the newspaper biz, even the good gray Times. And I'm in the newspaper biz.

That's what I was thinking.

I'm always amused when I read newspaper stories about things dying. There are plenty of newspaper stories about hockey dying.  Yet more people are playing hockey and watching hockey that last year.  The same can't be said for newspaper subscribers.

I'm guessing golf is far more ingrained in us than say the tennis boom of the 70s/80s.  Plus it's a game for a lifetime.

But I agree with much of what it says.  The powers that be (a) need to recruit more women. The family oriented club I lived on outside Indianapolis had a lot of women play during the week, especially when school was in session.  (b) figure out how to speed up rounds so it doesn't take 7 total hours from the family for a man to play golf.  (c) figure out how to get more men to play 9 holes.

[Mike_Young]

The game isn't dying...the enterprise is dying.
Just take an example whereby a developer decides that tennis courts will sell houses.  He develops a tennis development with 6 houses around a court and he needs 50 courts for a 300 house development.  He can mae the numbers work as to cost of courts vs. lot value etc.  BUT can they use 50 courts.....hell no.....same goes for golf. 

[Mike Sweeney]

A slow news day for the NY Times? Page 1 had an article about John McCain, that while interesting would seem to me that it should have been placed in the NY Times Sunday Magazine. The information and data presented was mainly from the Keating scandal a decade ago. I am an undecided voter at this point, but this article seemed unfair to me to present it as some sort of breaking news.

Also strangely on page 1, golf is on the decline. The two main courses that they cite are Long Island National and Great Rock which are close to one another, built around the same time and share a similar problem in that they make a good part of their revenues from the summer North and South Fork vacationers. They have ALWAYS struggled to get local golfers in the shoulder seasons. Below are LI Nationals rates which show the big bump for the summer crowd.

 JAN $59
 FEB $59
 MAR $69
 APR $79
 MAY $89
 JUNE - AUG $129
 
Golf is obviously having economic problems, but using these two courses 5 miles apart as an example of a national problem seems like lazy reporting to me.

[Mike Sweeney]

He can mae the numbers work as to cost of courts vs. lot value etc.  BUT can they use 50 courts.....hell no.....same goes for golf. 

Mike,

You lost me. Can't use the tennis courts, meaning they are open to the public or can't sell the houses now?

[Mike_Cirba]

With a squeezed middle class since 2000, the only way for golf to grow in the US is to make inroads into ethnic groups whose populations are growing, because if you look at demographics after we baby-boomers depart the planet, it is not encouraging for the game.  

Unfortunately, as we build courses further and further out from the major population centers, access becomes a major issue.  The good, cheap, affordable courses are the only way for the game to grow and there ain't enough of them.   Instead, there are way too many country club for a days with names like "The Siege of BullFeces Mountain Golf Links at Hawk's Ridge".  

[john_stiles]

..........and Alvin Tostig had a son ?

Locally,  the Mom and Pop's are being surrounded by development on the outskirts of town.   I think my area will lose one course, maybe two in the next 5-10 years.

But, but....might gain one or two 'tourist-resort' courses up near Smoky Mountains.

[Mike_Young]

He can mae the numbers work as to cost of courts vs. lot value etc.  BUT can they use 50 courts.....hell no.....same goes for golf. 

Mike,

You lost me. Can't use the tennis courts, meaning they are open to the public or can't sell the houses now?

MIKE S,
I WAS SAYING WE BUILT COURSES AS AN AMENITY TO SELL HOUSE LOTS ALL THE WHILE KNOWING THAT WE DID NOT HAVE GOLFERS TO FILL THE COURSES.....IF WE DID THE SAME CONCEPT WITH SOCCER FIELDS OR TENNIS COURTS WOULD HAVE SAME RESULTS......

[jeffwarne]

Mike,
having seen some of the soccer moms in your area, that might be a better way to sell lots
than golf 

[Paul Carey]

Yet another article in the NY Times that is based on their views rather than facts.  The newspaper has become a purveyor of opinion rather than fact in the last five years.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Golf would seem to be healthy out here in Washington, until you look a little deeper.  While new courses like Chambers Bay and The Home Course, are busy, the remainder continue to have issues. 

We may be over built, we are not attractive to adrenaline junkies and it is expensive and frustrating to take up the sport.  This is an society where everyone wants instant gratification.  Golf is simply not well matched to that need.  Add the expense of playing with a decent set of clubs and equipment starting at $1000 and then charge someone $50 to $125 to spend four hours.  The game is cutting itself off from its roots.  Skiing is undergoing much the same process.

This is part of the reason I have been so philosophically opposed to using public money for the construction and operation of upscale daily fee courses.  Governments should be in place to supply services that would otherwise be underserved in the private sector. 

Here is my suggestion:  go to your local muni, buy a beer and sit overlooking the first tee and see who is playing.  My guess is they will be, predominently older males with time on their hands. 

Then spend some time thinking of how to make the game attractive to Women, younger people, and baby boomers.    Then give them your used clubs!

[Mark Manuel]

I always laugh when playing a round and someone in the group complains about a kid being out whether the kid is with adults or other kids.  The more of them that play the better, that is really the future of golf. 

The thinning of the herd related to the boom of golf course building will not mark the end of golf.  Just another page turned.

Clubs that encourage youth programs and play will be fine.

[Joe Hancock]

Golf isn't dead, it just smells funny....

 

[tlavin]

Yet another article in the NY Times that is based on their views rather than facts.  The newspaper has become a purveyor of opinion rather than fact in the last five years.

I know the NY Times is an easy target for the conservative crowd, but I don't remember them tossing any brickbats in that direction when the Times carried the Bush-Cheney-Powell mail during the run up to the war in Iraq.  They printed a series of big articles about all of the bs the Bush White House was selling about WMD and the other lies that were used to justify this stupid, costly and image-damaging war.  Just remember, the media out there, the real media, not Fox or MSNBC, get it right most of the time and sometimes they get it very wrong.  And sometimes the liberal media get it wrong in a way that benefits the very conservatives that bash them like a range ball.

[TEPaul]

Golf isn't dead and it's not going to die either, that's for sure. Participation in it may shrink for all kinds of reasons and that just may be a good thing in the end. But it's not dead and it will never die.


"I know the NY Times is an easy target for the conservative crowd, but I don't remember them tossing any brickbats in that direction when the Times carried the Bush-Cheney-Powell mail during the run up to the war in Iraq.'

Terry:

Are you saying The Times didn't lay into the buildup to the war back then? If so the reason may've been The Times is remarkably pro-Israel and it always has been.

[Phil Benedict]

Another trend that may hurt golf long term is the rising preference for an urban life style.  Increasingly, people want to live in neighborhoods which have an active, safe street life and where they can walk to retail.  Already, some recently built suburban sub-divisions are decaying because of neglect and crappy construction materials.  

The growth of golf parallels the postwar popularity of suburban living.  As living preferences change and tilt towards real cities and faux cities (think Reston Town Center), golf is going to suffer.

[JMorgan]

It's not dying, just correcting.

[Jerry Kluger]

It's interesting that Dicks Sporting Goods is now opening a chain of large golf stores called Golf Galaxy -  I must presume that they have done the necessary marketing studies that would conclude that there is a market for such operations.  I have been in one of the stores and there isn't anything there that is better or different from other golf retailers. 

[Dean Stokes]

As my old Head Pro used to say when the Board of Directors used to complain about rounds/ revenue being down, "hey it's overpriced, time consuming and people/families have way too many other leisure options nowadays than just golf". I don't think he was far wrong.

[bstark]

  As Mike writes the country club for a day public courses out on ELI struggle to make their bucks in the shoulder seasons. American Golf completely overestimated the demand during these periods when Long Island National was opened. With others opening shortly thereafter the demographics got dicey. Too many other options became available between here and NY population center.
   With regard to the supply demand comments in general. Very interesting dynamics are occuring. How come the little par 3 courses and county courses are ALWAYS jammed up? You see families with kids just learning the game. For under $40 you can go play and take the whole family. And on the high end the Friars' Heads and Sebonack's get to cherry pick the hard core golfers.
   The economics, at least on eastern long island, dictate that courses like Great Rock, Tall Grass and LI National will struggle and the money will be made by turning those holes  into houses.

[Dean Stokes]

Brian, did you say 'hardcore' or 'wealthy' golfers

Very few could possibly afford to join the two golf course you mention so play is never going to be high there. The County and par 3 courses are fun and affordable so they'll stay busy. In the middle you have the courses such as LIN. Overpriced, five hour rounds and when I played it in the middle of last summer, in dreadful condition. We would never have gone back. How are they going to keep the rounds up?

[bstark]

Dean,
 
 Okay hard core and well off. American Golf has done a terrible job at LIN and the course condition has suffered over time. The staff in pro shop to staff on the course ratio has got to the worst in golf. Pace of play is always a problem on courses of this type and enough is not done to keep groups moving.
   As to the long term solution, the $$$$ are in the dirt.

[Chuck Brown]

While this story may portend bad news for golf course developers, does it contain any information that should worry me as an average golfer?

Certainly, I'd like more opportunities away from work and family to play LI National, but hey I'm workin' on it!  Nothing about 'the golf market' or 'the golf business' is changing my life.

Chiefly, I am interested in more chances to play courses like Shinnecock, Sebonack and NGL.  Whether or not the game attracts a million new junior golfers, and a new demographic of young people of color is pretty much irrelevant to me.  And the last I checked, Shinne is not reopening its waiting list for membership.

At the same time, I say the more golf courses, the better.  Supply and demand.  And more and more supply!  For my own market equation, there can never be too many golf courses.  Hopefully they will all be great designs that will earn the praises of GCA...

Bottom line -- we hear all the time about the depression-status of the game of tennis.  But if you're just a tennis player, and you still have a tennis partner, what's the difference?

[Tim Leahy]

I believe that golf in the US may go the way of golf in Japan where land is more expensive than here. As green fees go up, people spend more time at driving ranges and save up for rounds of golf sparingly. As courses go private or are priced out of reach, the game won't decline because more driving ranges will be built, just less rounds will be played. I drove by my local driving range at 2pm on a non-holiday Tues. a couple of weeks ago and every stall was filled, so the game is not dying.

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