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Mike_Young

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AS golf downsizes....
« on: February 17, 2008, 09:25:25 PM »
In the last 20 years golf has been presented a a completely different business than it was from 1945 to 1980.
We complicated the model.
The PGA fell asleep at the wheel and allowed the CMAA to slip F&B guys into the drivers seat....thus showing that clubhouses made the money and golf lost money....
The management company started showing how to operate courses whereby it became a game of musical chairs played with Wall St money.....
We ended up with too many architects and builders.....
My Question?
What will the scene be in 2010?
How many architects will be around? Or how many will have a staff and office?
How many builders?
How much will the average maintenance budget decrease?
How much will the average irrigation system decrease?
And of course....will there be enough "Best New" awards by different magazines that in a year when 100 courses open...all can win an award.....
Will the GCSAA Show remain the GIS show?
From listening to guys at the show...I really think the US is in much worse shape than we are saying as to golf courses and where they will be....JMO ;D ;D ;D ;D

« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 09:38:21 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Troy Alderson

Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2008, 09:43:58 PM »
Mike,

I hear where you are coming from.  I do not know if the golf industry is saturated, but I do think that the golf industry has gotten a little out of control.  Everything needs to be scaled back or we are seeing the next evolution of American golf, very corporate.  Again, I do not know if there are too many corporate types running the golf industry from the superintendent to the head golf professional to the management company, but gone are the days of small long term successful mom and pop golf course operation.  Most are struggling to get by and many are up for sale.  Corporate golf is here to stay.  All management positions at a golf course will need more education in business to stay valuable, looking at the bottom line even more so and at increasing the value of the golf experience.

Troy

Joe Hancock

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2008, 09:46:54 PM »
Survival of the fittest.....

 :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Young

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2008, 09:50:43 PM »
Try,
I see just the opposite. I think the mom and pops survive.  go to a conference and you will see the same "speaker " types.  If you have been in the business you can see where these guys have gone from one management company to the other over the years and all of them have bought the same courses from each other at one time or another.  I see many mom and pops that do well but have no reason or desire to advertise or promote outside of their immediate area so most people never hear of them outside that area.  Just remember how the NGCOA began....was for small owners but they sold out to the management companies......
I just think that we are about to see all the hype and BS cease and go back to pure old mom and pop sucessful courses.  17000 courses.....14,000 will be mom and pop....I think ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2008, 09:54:07 PM »
It will take time for the real estate mess to straighten itself out.  Doesn't that impact new residential golf courses pretty significantly?  There is always a lag between reality and perception.   That is, the recession is usually over before the Fed says we had one.  But in the case of the major expenditure for a new golf development, it could be even longer before anyone is willing to pull the trigger and invest.

James Bennett

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2008, 09:55:58 PM »
Mike

an allied question.  Which roles at a golf club should be paid the greatest amounts of money in 2010?  Perhaps name the top 3 of these.  At some clubs, an individual may take on more than one role.  The answer could be different at large and small clubs.

1.  Course Supt
2.  Asst Course Supt
3.  Club Manager/CEO
4.  Finance Manager
5.  Food and Beverage Manager
6.  House Manager
7.  Membership Manager
8.  Director of Golf
9.  Club Professional
10. Golf Architect/Consultant

In terms of your questions, I would postulate that the maintenance budget will be linked to the income of the club, which will be influenced by the local competition for the golf dollar.  I currently see 40% to 50% of income going to course labour and materials, but that is in a low debt situation with land effectively free.

Average irrigation system cost - perhaps two times the expected annual course maintenance bill (labour and materials).

How much water will be applied to courses?

Sorry for the sidetrack - my questions and answers seem to pertain to existing club operations, and not to new ventures.  

My view on my question.  I think the most important people at a club is the course supt, the club professional and then the club manager.  A club can get good value for money with a golf architect/consultant, but in most years for less money than it spends on these other functions.

James B

Edit - the 'mom and pop' model combine a number of these key roles into the one, which can make an efficient model as long as less expensive golf is the target.  The most important people for them at a club would be those that cover their particular skill shortfalls.  Could be a course supt, but could be a turf advisor!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 10:00:21 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tom_Doak

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2008, 10:07:36 PM »
James:

If there are clubs who pay a consulting architect annually anything like what they pay their superintendent or manager, those clubs are nuts.

You might pay the architect more in the one year where a major project is done, otherwise it shouldn't be in the same ballpark.  For that matter, if clubs are spending 50-100k per year tinkering with the design in tough financial times, they deserve what's coming to them.

I think Joe is right, it's about survival of the fittest, although there are a few high-end firms who will continue to find rich clients ... but probably not in the same numbers as before.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2008, 10:12:26 PM »
Mike,

I was feeling pretty good, coming home from the Stars win over the Wings, and now I read this. :(

But, its true. All I know is that it will be a mish mash of trends, much like design. For instance, in the last few days, I have heard of several courses for sale here, and another contacted me about expanding by nine holes.  Go figure!

I have always realized that the 90's was an abberation as far as the golf biz goes.  From what I see, maintenance budgets will go back under half a mil.  While we discuss what's the best bunker style here, the real discussion at 75% of the courses is how many bunkers can we take out, and how can we make the rest easier to maintain, and damn the looks......Not much different than the depression.

I say that because of the golf managent companies. I don't think they are going away like you do.  But I do think that the need to send $0.20 of every $1.00 to the corporate office does open the way for a mom and pop operation in a mid market.  I think the big companies will be in big cities, and mom and pop will buy themselves a middle class job in small markets.  Kind of like American flying to Chicago and American Eagle doing the commutes to Rockford, IL, etc.

As to gca's, computers allow more and more to work home based.  If my office complex A/C units work as badly as they did last summer, I will be doing that myself!  If I want a suana, I will go to the gym.....

I think the top dog at any facility can come from the ranks of the pro, GM, or super.  All are fighting for those positions.  With the idea that we have three times as many applicants, I gather golf management salaries will go down, from competition and revenues.  I think there will always be some quality people in the biz, despite lower salaries, because its a glamor biz.

After 2001, if you talked long enough, you found that almost every small business, including gca's, photographers, contractors, etc. borrowed money for the privlege of staying in the biz.  We paid the debts off but I doubt that most will do it again.  In Orlando, I got some suggestions about just how unbusy most of the Contractors were right now.  The architects I talked to were amazed I had a new course design to brag about.

The one mortal lock is that the average amount of irrigation water will go way down.  Hellloooo Paspalum and Buffalo Grass!  Any new irrigation system will be much higher in price.  To achieve water savings, heads will have to be spaced tighter, adding up, and there will be more in the way of weather stations, part to part heads, individual head control, moisture sensors, and other bells and whistles to make water conservation possible.  Rainbird has a course in NJ where a combo of all those things achieved a 46% water savings.  Of course, some clubs will water more area for the same amount of water, rather than reduce water useage.

I am glad I won a few "Best New" awards before they were a mortal lock.  I agree, that with just a few more categories, and less courses, there will be years that if I don't at least make the list with a project, I should stay away from tall buildings.......that is, if I am not one of the casulties of the downturn.  I hope not because after 24 years on my own, I get the sneaky sense that I am umemployable!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2008, 10:34:01 PM »
Mike -

I can't answer your question.

My prediction is that every professional who participates on this board will still be working steadily.

The interesting question to me is whether their ideas/theories about golf course architecture and the nature of their actual course designs will have changed.

I don't mean whether anyone will discover something radically new; but whether anyone will move in, what is for them, a markedly different direction.

Yes, it'll have a lot to do with the land/sites they might work on; but it's the other part of the equation that I'd be interested in  

Peter
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 11:22:18 PM by Peter Pallotta »

James Bennett

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2008, 10:35:54 PM »
Tom Doak

I should have been more blunt.  The amount that needs to be paid each year to an architect who has adopted MacKenzies 'finality' principle in the original build should be minimal, but well worth every cent.

Jeff and Mike

I think the cost of gof will be an issue for a large majority of courses.  The best courses, those with the best soil and sites and those closest to the richest of markets will be an exception.  But the rule will (?should) be how do we provide a quality year-round experience for the least resources, be they money, chemicals, water or perhaps even the golfers time.

What I also expect is that those golfers who choose to be a member of a golf club will play a considerable amount of golf (and so place other pressures on that club) whereas those who can only play infrequently will let memberships lapse.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2008, 10:47:56 PM »
James, you are right in that there will always be a high end, relatively unaffected.  Even SH and PD were built during the depression, in somewhat unlikely places.  Maybe if ethanol takes off, Iowa will be the next hotbed of great new courses.

I haven't seen that the basic strategies employed in the depression won't be used now.  At least, I haven't seen any new and radically different ones yet.

Maybe my thread the other day about the great new design idea of the 21st century should have been answered:  survival!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Powers

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2008, 10:56:54 PM »
Speaking from the private equity end, the model which many clubs follow is fundamentally flawed, unless they are still of the “10 year waiting” list ilk.

I wouldn’t say the PGA was asleep at the wheel.  Of all the club pros I know, none of them have any interest in F and B, running the pool, dealing with the Chef, are you serious?  The losses that many clubs take on the F and B side are outrageous.  I have worked at clubs where the GM spends much of his time trying to justify the 5 waitresses and 2 bartenders that are standing around most of the time while scrutinizing every penny spent by other departments.  This leads them to sell as many functions as possible to try to cover the losses.

The other factor which hand cuffs many clubs is the maintenance budget.  They want fast greens, perfect tees, fairways and roughs.  Most clubs who need members believe they need these conditions to attract new members, therefore, their maintenance budgets go through the roof.  

HP

James Bennett

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2008, 11:38:14 PM »
Jeff

I think the line is 'history repeats itself'.   Good luck with the new course.


Michael

There was a very wise man (Peter Sellars) who as a gardener in 'Being There' (Chauncy Gardener) spoke to the President of the USA about natures cycles.  Summer, autumn, spring and winter.  Nobody enjoyed the winter, whether economically or agriculturally.  But at least they know that spring was imminent. 

At golf clubs, the membership enjoys things when they are at their best, or are on the improve.  The membership is less tolerant of the annual cycle when things deteriorate.  They can always find a local course which presents better at that time of the cycle (whilst forgetting about how poorly that course may present at a different time of the cycle).  In my (limited) experience, maintenance practices which are aimed at increasing the quality of spring and summer usually get a great response from the membership but they also mean harsher autumns and winters for the members.  Or, a lot of money on projects to deal with the problems caused by short-term presentation projects.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mike Sweeney

Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2008, 05:35:39 AM »
#1



From www.npg.com:

Along our coasts, where nearly half the population lives, the U.S. is among the more densely populated countries in the world. The Northeast averages 767 people per square mile, while Haiti, for comparison, has 580. By 2010, when California's population reaches 50 million, population densities in coastal California will reach 1,050 people per square mile. 46% of the U.S. population lives in coastal regions where ecosystems are the most fragile.


#2 - The population growth is dominated at both coast in cities. It is dominated by immigrants who have little interest in joining country clubs:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/masters/2003-04-09-clubs-cost_x.htm

___________
Says the Rev. Joseph Lowery, president emeritus of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, who was instrumental in integrating Shoal Creek, the site of the 1990 PGA Championship: "Many blacks could afford to join country clubs, but it's not a priority for them. It's a token situation and will be for a long time. Why pay $100,000 to get looked at cross-eyed? Education and job opportunities, they're worth the hostility."
____________

First tier clubs around NYC are here to stay. Looking at the aerial of Riviera yerterday, I was somewhat amazed that it survived, but obviously it is an icon. It is the second and third tier clubs that will have to shift their models or they will sell the land to a developer who puts in housing for the immigrant expansion. If Mom and Pop can get a zoning variance, they too will be gone for the $.

You probably need 7-10 years for Florida to get back into a regular cycle with real estate, but it will as baby boomers will still seek the warmer climates including Mike Young's backyard.

Mike_Young

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2008, 07:50:43 AM »
James B,
I think the supt should probably make the most because he has the most effect on play.....
Today, I have a friend who was a supt at a National recognized resort.....he left and prchased a course I designed near Athens....he did better than anyone in town last year because he was there....he maintained for less but better and he had a personality.....as for GCAs on a club budget...forget that...

Jeff,
I agree water use is going down.....
Management companies.....I don't know but I think there will be less..the ones with 3 or 4 courses that are not out trying to convince Wall St to give them $$$$ for purchasing 100 courses will be ok.
BUT the big one....I think Architects will go under 100 active.  I am not talking about Trust Fund Babies with a business card and a website but active working architects with projects being developed.

James B,
Yep.....only those that play a lot of golf will justify private golf clubs...other products have entered the marketplace and will compete for the less frequent player.....

Michael P,
"I wouldn’t say the PGA was asleep at the wheel.  Of all the club pros I know, none of them have any interest in F and B, running the pool, dealing with the Chef, are you serious? "    YEP am serious....have spoken to many PGA pros that feel the PGA let them down.....when they did not actively promote PGA pros as capable GMs....Isee many of the monstrous Clubhouse site and F7B operations as products of a GM trained in those areas.  The lead dog will justify his position and if he is from outside of golf....then?????   A midsize town may have 2 or 3 private golf courses but it may have 200 hundred dining facilities yet these guys will try to compete and as you say....hire a person to sell events etc....IMHO PGA managers would not have allowed as many clubs to get in this position.....Old clubs were member driven...CMAA has made it where the new model is employee driven.... ;D ;D

Mike Sweeney,
You got to ask to come in my backyard..... ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2008, 08:37:26 AM »
Mike,

By the way, you have already answered your own question by doing projects overseas. I don't think that golf will downsize around the world, only here in the US, and even then it will be location specific.

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2008, 09:49:03 AM »
This seems like an issue of understanding the market and branding to that market.  When golf became secondary to the 'Club' experience, I believe the game devalued some of its brand. 

The solution: 
1) Keep it about the game.  Pros should be a partner in your improvement not a marshall or shop keeper.  Sales in the pro shop will follow the players improvement and excitement. 

2) If you want a fine dining experience, go to a fine restaurant.  I have been to very few if any clubs where the dining experience is a good as it can be at a public restaurant. 

3) This is a country of immigrants.  My Irish ancestors weren't interested in joining a club either, but when their socio economic situation improved, my grandfather was integral in helping design the local golf course in the town he ran a business.  He understood that recreation, particularly one that involved walking and sunlight, improved the health and well being of his workforce. 

4)  Keep em simple.  Understand the greatest size in the market is the guy who can pay a lower green fee.  He is going to live within a few miles of where he/she plays.  Pros need to be on the driving range or the golf course not in the shop.  The food and beverage manager needs to know how to mix a bourbon and water, draw a beer from the tap, turn a hamburger, or put a hot dog in a bun. 

My home town is a perfect example of present day golf.  Two courses open 1 week apart.  One costs $30 to play, the other $130 to play.  The local county executive bets the TAXPAYERS money on the moon and wins the rights to a US Open.  But before that they had lowered their green fees and had empty slots on the tee sheet.  The US Open was a pretty big dream and about as good a bet as winning the lotto, which we all know they won. 

Across town the state association buys their course for something short of $5 million.  Their biggest problem is TOO much play. 

If I were going to grow the game, I would be building the cheaper variety on degraded land and doing everything I could to keep the game fun.  That way when folks are willing to go out and blow there money on playing the big name course twice a year, the 50 rounds they played before enables them to enjoy the experience.

What are the best new low end courses in America?  I'll start with Wintonberry and The Home Course.  Others?

Rob_Waldron

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2008, 10:04:06 AM »
Mike

Golf has truly become a "business" as opposed to a hobby. The success of any given course will be determined by decisions based on sound business principals as opposed to emotion and ego.

Mom and Pop operators and other one off courses will have difficulty competing with regional and national operators who can benefit from economies of scale derived from buying power and access to resources.

It is unfortunate that unrealistic feasibility studies were passed out like cheap toilet paper during the late 1990's and early 2000's. Many golf courses are stuck trying to cover huge amounts debt as result of exhorbitant development budgets. Too many courses struggle to break even let alone cover debt or provide a return on the investment to the developer.

Like any other product rounds of golf falls into a wide range of market niches. Demand for rounds of golf cannot be be put into one basket. Demand for golf must be evaluated based on price point, quality of product and location. At the end of the day the golf courses that provide good customer service, quality conditioning, an interesting design and a good value for the cost will be the most successful courses in their market.




Mike_Young

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2008, 10:13:05 AM »
Rob,
I dont think we are that far off base but I think you know what I mean about the big guys and Wall St......call me when back this way.....mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2008, 03:25:12 PM »
Mike,
I'm looking forward to the fluff going away.

Cue up a website for a typical US golf course and the words "manicured,state of the art,
luxurious, meticulous,signature,award winning,fitness trainer,world renowned chef...."  jump out at you as loudly as the back tee yardage.
These websites are buried with flowery prose clearly written and proofread by individuals with only a passing knowledge of the game-if they even bother to mention the golf in the same breath as the spa, clubhouse, meeting,massage, valet, and banquest facility.
It's all so mindnumbingly the same that the websites are pointless.
And you have to dig hard to find any pictures taken as the holes actually play.

Then cue up a UK website and you'll see clear ,simple pictures of the golf courses .
Imagine that

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

RJ_Daley

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2008, 05:14:59 PM »
Quote
My Question?
What will the scene be in 2010?
How many architects will be around? Or how many will have a staff and office?
How many builders?
How much will the average maintenance budget decrease?
How much will the average irrigation system decrease?
And of course....will there be enough "Best New" awards by different magazines that in a year when 100 courses open...all can win an award.....
Will the GCSAA Show remain the GIS show?
From listening to guys at the show...I really think the US is in much worse shape than we are saying as to golf courses and where they will be....JMO

Mike, I think 2010 isn't long enough time frame to answer most of the questions.  Perhaps things will get worse; but for better or worse, I think the time frame needs about 10 more years to move the business and participation level in all aspects of the golf industry to a defined condition or footing. 

Personally, I think the cream of the crop of new golf course private clubs will continue to keep a few top archies employed and construction crews working.  But, to say that there would be more archies and associates, and more people working in course construction would probably be unlikely.

I say that because I think golf will follow the prospects of the middle class.  If that class keeps dwindling, more people falling down the economic-social ladder, and fewer people rising, then those that actually are a large market of people that enjoy and participate frequently in golf, may simply get to be a smaller market if faced with rising costs in the participation in golf.  Much of that may be beyond the powers that be who guide or set trends in marketing golf, either in the area of design/building and maintaining golf courses, or provide the club facilities, or the equipment.

It just seems to me that everything else in society and the environment are mitigating against the economical and efficient operations in golf design/build, maintenance, and even the stuff one don't think about but are big factors like insurance and property taxes, etc.  Obviously, everything gets passed down to the customer, and if the customer is getting squeezed more, he will play less and less until he abandons the game.  Then, only seriously wealthy people will play. 

That is just off the top of my head, and in about 5 minutes I can come up with a different conjecture of how things will shake out. 

Bottom line in my view is Tim Wieman's oft used quote (at least used by me  ;) ;D ) "People want to play more - not pay more".
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2008, 05:40:56 PM »
The U.S. market needs to "build" golfers before it builds too many more courses. The greatest work to be done in the next few decades (in the U.S.) will be to transform existing (already entitled) courses that already have water, zoning, etc.

"Building" golfers entails bringing new golfers into the market, blending golf with exercise, and finding new reasons for people to take up the game — and return to it every week. One of the greatest challenges in golf is that people are time urgent. Many "golfers" play only a few times per year due to cost, time, demands on their schedules and the inability to play except on weekend mornings.

So...go grab a neighborhood kid and take them golfing. Invite a friend to play — who isn't necessarily one your regulars. This is the type of activity we need in our golf community: Outreach. The alternative is to die like a bunch of CB radio enthusiasts.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Sean_A

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2008, 05:58:16 PM »
I find it hard to buy all the doom and gloom stuff.  It mostly comes from people who make a living in the business and the standard response is to say we need more golfers.  How many golfers is enough?  I can tell you right now no matter the number it isn't enough.  Really now, say things get real tough and 5% of courses close - what is so terrible about that?  The bottom line is most people that are interested in golf find time and money to play or they find another solution to stay  close to the game.  The folks that don't care so much will always find excuses not to play or be involved.  Thats the way it has always been.  Golf booms/busts have more to do with the economy than anything happening with the game. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2008, 06:20:22 PM »
Sean,

I am in the business, but I can't agree.  Perception is so important these days, as is political clout.  If, when water debates are raging in a few years, golf is seen as a declining sport, we might not get any water at all, vs a rationed amount.  That's just an example.  If an industry isn't moving forward, its moving backwards. Its hard to stay the same size.

There can be too much gloom and doom however, and we have heard it before.  Check out the tone of the intro of the 1976 World Atlas of Golf right after tax deductions for clubs were under attack.  It sounded like golf was doomed forever and look what happened.  Its been going strong since 1450 or so and will continue to do so, with some dips and more peaks yet to come.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason McNamara

Re: AS golf downsizes....
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2008, 06:46:20 PM »
#1from www.npg.com:

Along our coasts, where nearly half the population lives, the U.S. is among the more densely populated countries in the world.

Mike, that source of yours is doing some serious cherry-picking.  Take the most populated half of any country and the density will go through the roof. 

It's also an outfit that claims "the scientific consensus is that 150-200 million is the ideal population size for the U.S."   Oh, OK.  ::)

Quote
The Northeast averages 767 people per square mile, while Haiti, for comparison, has 580.

That's probably not true.  NY State's density is barely half that.  NJ is substantially above, but it and RI are the only such ones.  PA is way, way less.  Unless they cleverly defined the northeast as limited to RI-MA-CT, I call BS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density

Otherwise, what Sean and Jeff said about too much doom and gloom.

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