[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil:

On the 4 best courses thread, Tom Doak says a gca's first course should be included because

a.  Without it there might not have been any more, and

b.  It is the truest expression of the architect's "new ideas" being given a chance to make their way into the world

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, when the architect had not had sufficient practice under someone else and wasn't too polished in his ability to get his ideas into the ground -- C.B. Macdonald on his original effort for Chicago Golf Club at Belmont, for example, or Donald Ross at Oakley (if that was in fact his first design).  Even in those cases, reason (a) comes into play.

Let's fast forward to modern times.......in the last 20 years, what gca came out with the most radical or different ideas from his mentor or even first design?  I would tend to think that most new designers would look substantially like their mentors, perhaps with a few new flourishes they never got to try when associates.

Of course, Pete and Alice Dye set a new paradigm without mentors, and Mike Strantz went pretty far from the Fazio mold.  I guess Doak and Coore are different from what Dye was doing when they left.

What others really broke away in style or theory terms?

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

The guys you mentioned all qualify, as does Jim Engh, I think ... depending on what you count as his first course.  He's certainly pretty far out of the Killian & Nugent camp now.

Not sure who the others would be.  Baxter Spann might be one; I haven't seen enough of his original work.  Same for Mike Nuzzo; I've only seen his pictures.  Desmond Muirhead was certainly original. 

That course in Canada done by Tom Mackenzie and Martin Ebert looks nothing like their work for Donald Steel, but I don't know if that's their new style or just that they are trying something new on that project ... it happens to look a lot like what's trendy now.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I could be wrong, but I think when Jim worked for Dick Nugent, after I left and they split up, I think he was moving him to a bolder style.  In that sense, I still see Jim's work as evolutionary for him.  He might chime in and I may be too close to that situation to assess it.  Also, he spent time designing in Europe for Langer in between opening his office and I am not sure how that fits the pattern, not having seen any of his Langer era work.

But, he does do some interesting designs and I presume his first was interesting as well.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW,

After posting, it occurred to me that we discussed this a few years ago.

Also, no need to limit the time frame if talking about the old guys again makes for a more lively discussion.

[Adam Clayman]

Looking at York, Nebraska.'s six holes, that Jim Engh built very early in his solo career, (if I have the timing correct?) I'd say he has evolved more than most. His gathering principle is hardly visible there. 

[Doug Ralston]

You architect types certainly spot differences more easily than I ever could.

Look at Michael Hurdzan following Jack Kidwell though. Talk about a transition into a much different, far more open style.

The Brass Ring, a little country club cum semi-private south of Columbus, is an endearing Kidwell product. With it's narrow, tree-lined fairways, creek and brush hazards, tree defined 'entry' areas, and small contoured greens, it is the classic old Country Club. Great fun to play.

Cook's Creek is a collaboration between Kidwell and Hurdzan. The fairways are more open, wider, though trees still often define the doglegs, and the greens are more wavy and deeper bunkers to protect.

Lassing Point is still more open. Fairways big and greens huge, trees only strategically added.

Erin Hills is mch more rugged around the fairways. Trees are mostly out of play.

My point is that Jack Kidwell's influence has almost completely subsided as the years have gone by, IMHO. The great architects always grow, yes? I think Hurdzan's best is yet to come.

Now perhaps you might know the answer to this. What was Hurdzan's 1st solo?

Doug

[Scott Weersing]

If you want to talk about first designs, what about David McLay Kidd?

1. Bandon Dunes, 1999

After that, I have not played any of his other courses. His first design is unique and not because of the site he was given. I amazed with the variety of holes and the strategy it takes to play them, especially No. 11.

[JMorgan]

Dev Emmet - Garden City

[BCrosby]

If we can name first solo courses going back past the last 30 years -

- RTJ's Peachtree. It marks the end of the GA and the beginnings of the Modern Age. You can almost see the transition in the course.

- Herb Leeds. It's hard to over-estimate Myopia. Years ahead of NGLA and anyone else in the US. Palmetto might be included. I'm not sure how much later it was built.

Bob 

[JMorgan]

Dev Emmet - Garden City

Ooops, sorry, Jeff ... I was still back on Tom's original question and didn't see the request for modern. 

Mike Strantz - Caledonia

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not certain it was his first but Mike Devries did an awesome job at Kingsley.

[John Kirk]

I'll add The Kingsley Club by Mike DeVries.  I just reviewed his body of work on his website.  He worked on a course called Pilgrim's Run before that, but The Kingsley Club appears to be the first course where he is completely responsible.

I'd say Mike's work exhibits the influence from working with Tom D., but there are differences as well.  I'm a little reluctant to try and make broad judgements between the two, since they participate here, but I'll go ahead and try.  I'd say that Mike DeVries is a bit more willing to lay the course over the land without moving any dirt.  I just don't think that Tom would build a golf hole like #4 or #7, where the best landing areas require such precision.  Also, the Kingsley Club has a number of small, really tough greens, where getting up and down from the wrong side is extremely difficult, and I see Tom's work as being a little more forgiving in that respect.  Both are heavily influenced by Crystal Downs, which features this type of difficulty, but I see The Kingsley Club more in this vein.

In short, I'd say Mike DeVries is more of a strict minimalist, and likes the short game to be tough.  Not only is The Kingsley Club a very fine golf course; it is a tough golf course as well.

[Doug Ralston]

I'll add The Kingsley Club by Mike DeVries.  I just reviewed his body of work on his website.  He worked on a course called Pilgrim's Run before that, but The Kingsley Club appears to be the first course where he is completely responsible.

John;

Here is a bit of info on Pilgrim's Run. See #10

http://www.migolfmagazine.com/features/Top50.html

Unique, eh?

Doug

[Tom_Doak]

Doug R:  I think the "change" you see in Mike Hurdzan's designs is the influence of Dana Fry, who left Fazio in part because he wanted to do bolder things than Fazio would let him do.

The Golden Age was full of such guys:  MacKenzie was a bit too wild for Colt, George Thomas was clearly thinking outside the box, and then there were Fownes and Crump and Hugh Wilson and C.B. Macdonald.  All of those guys were clearly revolutionaries ... but then it was easier for them to be a revolutionary in those days.  Anybody could be a golf design revolutionary in Latvia or Senegal today, just by going there.

Bob C:  Years ago the ASGCA together with USA Today published a ranking of golf courses -- thankfully now abandoned -- in which nearly every member architect got a token choice of their own design.  Anyway, they also listed the three most influential designs of the modern era, and RTJ II insisted on putting Peachtree on there, which I could never see -- PARTICULARLY since he had Peachtree on there instead of Augusta National.  I've always seen Peachtree as an extension of Augusta's ideals, which only makes since when you consider the founder of both was the other Bob Jones.  But I guess you could make the case that the use of water at Peachtree by Trent Jones was a precursor to the changes at 11 and 15 and 16 at Augusta that made Augusta different than its original design.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Doug R:  I think the "change" you see in Mike Hurdzan's designs is the influence of Dana Fry, who left Fazio in part because he wanted to do bolder things than Fazio would let him do.

 

Broad statements usually contain some truth but not the whole truth.  Having said that it seems that Hurdzan made "pretty" courses.  Glenmaura and Fieldstone come to mind as courses that look good but are only average. The addition of Fry made them good courses.  Calusa Pines is one example.  Is that a general consensus? 

[Garland Bayley]

Phil:

On the 4 best courses thread, Tom Doak says a gca's first course should be included because
...
Of course, Pete and Alice Dye set a new paradigm without mentors,
 ...

I don't think you would want to include Pete's first work. It wasn't until he adopted "studied" under Old Tom and others that he had his breakout.

[Doug Ralston]

Doug R:  I think the "change" you see in Mike Hurdzan's designs is the influence of Dana Fry, who left Fazio in part because he wanted to do bolder things than Fazio would let him do.

 

Broad statements usually contain some truth but not the whole truth.  Having said that it seems that Hurdzan made "pretty" courses.  Glenmaura and Fieldstone come to mind as courses that look good but are only average. The addition of Fry made them good courses.  Calusa Pines is one example.  Is that a general consensus? 

So Tom; Tommy;

Do you agree that the art of Hurdzan/Fry is getting better over time?

And that isn't to say it was not pretty good, even early. I am in an area with a lot of Hurdzan courses. None are bad, and most are quite fun to play. Lassing Point, an early piece, has gotten some nice acclaim in it's time. I have confidence when I get to play one I haven't seen that I will be pleased.

H&F have taken a LOT of work [must eat, yes?] and not all will be masterpieces, but obviously much word of mouth has indicated that if you contract them you will not be displeased. Recently they have trended upscale, and that gives money for more innovation. I expect even better to come.

Doug

[Bill_McBride]

I think Dr MacKenzie's first design, Alwoodley, holds up very well today.  The members are and should be proud of keeping it pretty much as it was in its early days.   Without the wonderful terrain of Cypress Point or Pasatiempo, he  managed a routing and variety that remains very interesting over 100 years later.

[Brent Hutto]

People around here seem to like lists. So couldn't we attempt to construct a list as follows:

Name the "First Courses" which are better than Alwoodley?

Part B of the question could be to name the "First Courses" not within 200 miles of Philadelphia and not within a mile of the sea that are better than Alwoodley?

I'll bet the first list has fewer than a dozen entries and the second fewer than a handful. For some people the second list may be altogther empty.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

P'tree is a fascinating  course. More for historical reasons than its innate qualities.

It was the first big budget course to be built after ANGC. At its opening Life Mag. gave it a four page spread, NYT did articles and the golf mags fell all over themselves. It put RTJ on the map. I suspect that is why he ranked it the way he did in the ASGCA survey. (BTW, I would love to see that. Any way you could post it?)

The first hole looks like it could have been done by Stanley Thompson. Then the feel of things begins to change. Having played the course over about 20 years, it wasn't obvious to me at first. And it's not the water features. It's how features that create resistance to scoring start to predominate over classic GA features. By that I mean that P'tree has many wide, generous fw's coupled with brutal, unforgiving green complexes. The greens feel like they are from another era, from a different design mindset. The pretense that people will play a ground game is gone. Approaches are all aerial. The interesting recovery opportunites you find at ANGC are rare at P'tree. Greens are often perched with severe falloffs, lots of tough bunkers, etc.

I don't mean to suggest that these things are starkly obvious. Rather I see RTJ trying to find his own way, stated design goals notwithstanding. In short, P'tree was built to be hard for all players in a way that ANGC was not.

The Bobby Jones connection is interesting too. Certaily Bobby's stated aim for the course was to reprise ideas from ANGC. There's a letter that says exactly that in the locker room. In addition, P'tree was built at exactly the same time RTJ was making extensive changes at ANGC. I assume he shuttled back and forth between Atlanta and Augusta over those months. It was also exactly at that time that Bobby had the first major surgery on his back. For that reason I've wondered how involved he was at either course. He was at Columbia Presbyterian for a long time and for a longer time after that in bed in Atlanta.

You also can see RTJ experimenting at P'tree with ideas he used at ANGC. For example, 14th at P'tree has to have been a first draft of the 16th at ANGC. There is some of the repositioned creek on the 11th at ANGC in the creek that RTJ wrapped around the 2nd at P'tree.

I've gone on too long. But I can almost hear RTJ grinding the historical gears at P'tee. Interesting course.

Bob

[Phil Benedict]

A while ago I started a thread about the importance of water features at ANGC.  Was it really RTJ who brought them so prominently into play?  We have a million discussions about the original architectural intent at ANGC, but I think use of water hazards at ANGC was tremendously influential on courses built after 1960.

[J Sadowsky]

Which came first, Barton Creek or Kapalua?  If Kapalua, then C&C's first was a mighty effort.

Agree with Kidd - what a way to make a first impression
Agree with Strantz/Caledonia, but wasn't Legends-Parkland his first?

Will be interesting to see how Tiger's first plays into this, esp given how little I suspect was done with his own mind.   After all, does anyone give Nicklaus credit for MV anymore?

[David Druzisky]

Albeit it was with Cupp, but Foughts efforts at Pumpkin Ridge are noteworthy.

I agree with Justin about Tiger, that is if you can say he is the actual designer since he is playing golf full time.  Not to many guys get the good site, committed client, decent budget trifecta too often right out the gate.

I can not recall if it was actually their first one together, but Morrish and Weiskopf's Troon CC is darn good and won best of awards.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy W:  Dana Fry has been working with Hurdzan for more than 10 years, and I believe the courses you mention were also projects for which Dana was primarily responsible, but I'm not sure of that.  I am really not a big fan of their work based on the couple of courses that I've seen ...

so, Doug, I can't agree or disagree with your statement about the quality of their work.

Bob C:  The USA Today ranking was a waste of newsprint so I do not have a copy of it.  They had a "classic courses" list that pretty much stole from the GOLF and GOLF DIGEST rankings (sound familiar?) and a "modern courses" ranking that every architect had a token listing on, plus the modern courses that had made the top 100.  Really, that was about all there was to it.  And it wasn't Trent Jones himself who made the exalted claim for Peachtree, it was Robert Trent Jones, Jr.  (Of course now Chambers Bay would replace Peachtree in the top three.)

Your description of Peachtree is interesting -- I've only been out there once, but the first hole was indeed different than the rest.  I just figured the whole property was so hilly that the ground game was pretty much out, but I wasn't playing, so I didn't notice the difference in recovery shots.  Still -- Mr. Jones never built anything in his whole life that was conducive to chipping -- but I don't know if that was on purpose, or just because his preference for elevated greens made it so.  I DO know he assigned himself credit for the "heroic school" of design and for the prevalence of water hazards after 1945, because he told me himself.

[Tim Pitner]

If you want to talk about first designs, what about David McLay Kidd?

1. Bandon Dunes, 1999

After that, I have not played any of his other courses. His first design is unique and not because of the site he was given. I amazed with the variety of holes and the strategy it takes to play them, especially No. 11.

I'm glad to see someone else praising BD #11--I think it's a terrific hole that isn't mentioned very often as one of the notable holes at the Bandon resort. 

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