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Philippe Binette

How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« on: February 14, 2008, 11:26:59 AM »
in 60 years?

It could be Pacific Dunes or Sand Hills or any other marvels from the year 2000.

Will bunkers be lost, greens shrink, everything stays the same...?

Personnally, I think as long as the architect are active, the course will try to stay the same...

JESII

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2008, 11:35:26 AM »
in 60 years?

Personnally, I think as long as the architect are active, the course will try to stay the same...



Is there any evidence of this being the case through the last 100 years?

Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2008, 01:56:14 PM »
JES:  There were a lot of courses that tried to stay roughly the same from 1925-1985 -- the sixty year time period that Philippe speaks of.  Most of them have lost their minds in the last twenty years, though.

I think the two examples Philippe gave are tough ones, because the harsh environment makes it difficult to keep either Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes "the same".  The bunkering needs SIGNIFICANT annual maintenance, and it's hard to imagine they will last another sixty years without some short-cuts and reductions, but that is not to say that they won't still play fundamentally as they do today.

JESII

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2008, 03:47:55 PM »
Tom,

With absolutely no statistics in hand I would wager the hundred bucks you're going to win off of Brauer that more courses were materially changed during the 60 years you refer to than not...

Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2008, 04:50:55 PM »
Jim S:

More courses than not?  Absolutely.  But not the icons of that generation -- Merion, Oakmont, Winged Foot, Shinnecock, or Cypress Point.  They may have evolved a bit, or added a couple of tees, but they were very well preserved and most people would have considered them "the same".

JESII

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2008, 04:58:33 PM »
You interestingly...and probably not unintentionally, left out Augusta!

Also, it seemed like Merion went through substantial changes a few different times up through the '34 Open...but I'm just going off what Wayne and tom say on here.

Of the five "icons" you mentioned, in what way have they lost their minds in the last 20?

Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2008, 05:42:45 PM »
Jim:

I had a longer response but had to attend to family for 15 minutes and the new DG software logged me out :(

Short version:  the clubs I listed are far more sane than most others, even though four of them have Tom Fazio as their consultant.  ;)  Many others have bought off on $4 million renovations that were all about what the pros might do, not about how the members play.

JESII

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2008, 07:02:17 PM »
Tom,

I guess my point was that those courses changed every bit as much as most other courses over their first 60 years or so...it's the nature of the beast...this is an interesting topic to me because I think the best thing for architeculral integrity would be for you (Tom Doak and all other professional architects and their clients) to sign your contracts with the agreement to stay on for a fixed period of time as the consultant...I have been told on here how impossible that is, so be it...

But don't tell me that those trees at Oakmont didn't effect the course...ditto WF...Shinnecock also has seen tremendous evolution over this period...

My disagreement with the original premise still stands and my quoted line from Phillipe is what I disagree with. I don't think there is any evidence that Cypress remained intact because Alister MacKenzie was or was not alive...the members own the course and will do what they will do.


Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2008, 07:19:20 PM »
Jim S:

You may be entirely correct.  At the moment, the fate of Sand Hills rests with a bunch of members who would be 100% opposed to changes, and the fate of Pacific Dunes rests with a single owner.  Forty years from now both will be in different hands, and who knows?

Sean_A

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2008, 07:42:42 PM »
JES:  There were a lot of courses that tried to stay roughly the same from 1925-1985 -- the sixty year time period that Philippe speaks of.  Most of them have lost their minds in the last twenty years, though.

I think the two examples Philippe gave are tough ones, because the harsh environment makes it difficult to keep either Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes "the same".  The bunkering needs SIGNIFICANT annual maintenance, and it's hard to imagine they will last another sixty years without some short-cuts and reductions, but that is not to say that they won't still play fundamentally as they do today.

The trend in the UK has been to build revetted bunkers on windy sites.  Do you think the folks at Pacific Dunes would ever consider this as at least a partial solution to significant yearly maintenance?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Peter Pallotta

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2008, 08:54:35 PM »
What strikes me is that the icons and their members had only one question to deal with that Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes don't, and won't, i.e. how to best host a professional major championship.  In fact, what seems to me to define the icons is that they were immediately recognized as great courses not in spite of but because they were great championships tests. Is that perhaps the most meaningful difference between then and now, i.e. that the courses being immedately recognized today as great courses are those that are proudly *not* about championship tests? Will the inevitable changes to ownership and memberships not have the same impact in the future as they did in the past because of this?

Peter     

Did Prairie Dunes undergo a lot of changes in 60 years? Until recently, had it hosted major championships? Or did the 'modesty' that characterized its design in the first place (e.g. out of the way location, very low construction costs) protect it from the over-eager hands of change? Describing it that way, it sounds a lot like Sand Hills
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 09:20:45 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2008, 09:18:52 PM »
"Personnally, I think as long as the architect are active, the course will try to stay the same..."

Philippe:

Personally, I think as long as all architects who aren't the architect of record are kept away the course might have some chance of staying the same.

The future should probably be a matter of the architect of record learning how to inform and advise the course's maintenance department how to hold a look and even how to fix architecture in the normal course of annual maintenance.

Is there any question at all that architects going into the courses of other architects over time, matter of fact probably from the beginning of time in architecture, is one of the biggest and most institutionalized "make work" programs and policies imaginable?

David_Elvins

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2008, 02:01:27 AM »
A question to anyone who has any idea:

What are the factors that led to Pebble Beach losing alot of its original look and Cypress keeping most of its original look?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Rich Goodale

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2008, 02:07:49 AM »
If Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes are requiring significant human intervention on an annual basis to maintain their shape, can they really be considered "natural" or "minimalist" designs?

Brian Phillips

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2008, 04:22:02 AM »
If Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes are requiring significant human intervention on an annual basis to maintain their shape, can they really be considered "natural" or "minimalist" designs?
Rihc,

Every Links course I know requires 'significant human intervention on an annual or bi-annual basis' to maintain the revetted bunkers.  Is this not the same? I would class Links courses as being minimal...no?

Happy New Year...
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Rich Goodale

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2008, 05:35:57 AM »
Brian

I wouldn't call the periodic revetting of bunkers at the Old Course (every 5-7 years), Dornoch (only when needed) or any other links course I know as being either "significant" or "annual."  In any case, those two words were quoted from Tom Doak in regards to SH and PD, both of which he knows far better than I.  From what I have observed on site and picked up on this board, modern bunker placement and design is far less "permanent" than the good olde fashioned methods, even though today's technology is so advanced and funding (for consturction and maintenance) so plentiful.  Or maybe this is because today's technology is so far advanced and funding is so plentiful........ ;)

Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2008, 06:56:40 AM »
Richard:

The paradox is, as I am sure you are already well aware, a truly NATURAL course would always be changing, because the elements of Nature are at work on a daily basis.

I don't believe that the significant annual maintenance at Pacific Dunes is any more time-consuming or costly than the annual revetting of bunkers at The Old Course.  (I use the word annual because they rebuild a percentage of the bunkers every year ... the same is true for Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes, although some bunkers need help every year and some much less often.)  But I'm out there next week, so I'll ask.

Sean:

At Old Macdonald we are toying with the idea of using some revetted bunkers or even some sleepered bunkers, because we are concerned that Macdonald's steep grass faces will be torn up by the elements.  (And because the maintenance crew at Pacific Dunes is tearing out some railroad-tie paths and they have a lot of suprlus.)  I doubt we would ever employ the same look on Pacific Dunes, but if it found to significantly reduce the maintenance, I would never say never.

Peter P:

You are right in your query about Prairie Dunes.  Crystal Downs is another which I thought of right away, but didn't mention because I use it as an example too often.

David Elvins:

The answer to YOUR question is mostly about TRAFFIC.  Pebble Beach does ten times as much play as Cypress Point and the golfers do ten times as much damage.  Little finicky features such as the old picture of #7 will not hold up to such an onslaught.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 08:40:43 AM by Tom_Doak »

Sean_A

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2008, 07:14:39 AM »
Sean:

At Old Macdonald we are toying with the idea of using some revetted bunkers or even some sleepered bunkers, because we are concerned that Macdonald's steep grass faces will be torn up by the elements.  (And because the maintenance crew at Pacific Dunes is tearing out some railroad-tie paths and they have a lot of suprlus.)  I doubt we would ever employ the same look on Pacific Dunes, but if it found to significantly reduce the maintenance, I would never say never.


Tom

I ask because Burnham switched to revetted bunkering some years ago and erosion is still an unavoidable problem.  Presumably, if not kept in check the bunkers will eventually revert back to more sand face bunkers where the sand won't stay in the pits.  Burnham has recently redone many bunkers and installed sprinklers into the faces to water during summer months - I expect in the hope that less maintenance will be required.  Is this starting to become a common practice?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2008, 07:27:32 AM »
Sean:

I know that St. Andrews went to extraordinary lengths about ten years ago to reduce the maintenance on their bunkers -- they built sleeper walls back behind Hell, covered it back with earth, installed irrigation in the faces, etc.  But they still have to rebuild the faces of the bunker every so often.  Nature is capricious and relentless.

Is it becoming a common practice?  I guess, in that more clubs are willing to spend the money to try and fix the annual upkeep problem, but I haven't heard a lot of feedback that it's been a success.  Eddie Adams should chime in on this, I will try to get his attention.

Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2008, 08:50:00 AM »
Rich G:

I've thought some more about your previous post.

The problem with building a natural course is that Nature is always at work.  I would love to build a course with the wind-blown look of hazards that you see in Horace Hutchinson's book c. 1895 ... in fact I suggested that to Mike Keiser before he settled on the Macdonald concept.  But the problem is that if we built it, it wouldn't last, and the very natural look which made it popular would eventually be obliterated by nature and we'd have to substitute something else.  That would be way less costly to maintain, but the inevitable changes would be criticized, which is not such a great business plan.

We went into Pacific Dunes well aware of the realities of Nature ... I spent a lot of time talking to Dick Youngscap about Sand Hills and listening to him giggle about how all that finicky work on bunker edges will just be wiped out within a year or two.  So, I think there is a fundamental difference in how people interpret the goal of "preserving" these courses.  It isn't the exact shape or position of the bunkers we want to preserve -- it's the natural character of them.  If that includes some places where the sand is all blown out of the bunkers down to a dirt layer, that's fine with me, because I know that's what the site was like when we started; but I know at some point the golfers will object when there's too much of that in play, and we'll have to start the process over again.

So, we settle for somewhat domesticated Nature, as in the case of Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or Royal Dornoch.  Some architects insist there's no point in that, that we might as well admit to everything being artificial.  But the popularity of the above indicates that people like the natural aspect of golf courses, so I continue with the balancing act.

Sean_A

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2008, 08:54:43 AM »
So, we settle for somewhat domesticated Nature, as in the case of Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes or Royal Dornoch.  Some architects insist there's no point in that, that we might as well admit to everything being artificial.  But the popularity of the above indicates that people like the natural aspect of golf courses, so I continue with the balancing act.

Can it be put any better than this?  A balancing act is all that I ask for.  Of course, I prefer some balancing acts more than others.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Peter Pallotta

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2008, 09:01:46 AM »
Tom -
Thanks. I know this is a simplistic question (especially after that nuanced post), but isn't there a way to design a course so as to build into it the inevitability of change? 

I think the term might be entropy that describes how nature, left to its own, always moves towards a state of increasing disorder. Are there ways to design at least some features of a golf course so that this process of entropy leads to those features becoming more of what they were meant to be, not less?   

Peter

Tom_Doak

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2008, 09:09:06 AM »
Peter:

I am not sure any of us are clever enough to do that -- or at least, no one has demonstrated it to date.  I'm sure Dr. MacKenzie was closest to the Holy Grail in that regard.

Dan Herrmann

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2008, 09:28:32 AM »
I think Bandon Dunes #16 offers a possibile look into the future.  Note how the sandstone is at the surface to the right of the fairway.  Could wind erosion eventually cause a similar thing at PD or other BD holes?

And the ocean will have a big say in what happens.  Those cliffs by the courses are there for a reason - the ocean is a powerful beast.

Philippe Binette

Re: How a course like Pacific Dunes will look like...
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2008, 09:37:20 AM »
Peter, I will have to disagree with:
the term might be entropy that describes how nature, left to its own, always moves towards a state of increasing disorder.

Nature tend to get back to its own order, not to an increasing disorder.
It is a disorder as percieved by human will (in this case the golf course), which means that our creations (golf courses) are not adapted enough with nature, or trying not to change, which is another problem against nature.

Accepting change as a concept for a golf course would be a phenomenal task, both as a realisation and as a learning process for human being


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