Trump National pic, UGH!!!!

[David Stamm]

As a firm believer that a picture is worth a thousand words, I though I'd post this pic I found of Trump National in LA. I've seen some ask from time to time on the site if this course is worth the effort and money while they are visitng here in granola land. I think this speaks for itself. But hey, it's on the ocean and Pebble is only on a bay!

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I think if another couple of bunkers were added to each hole, then it would be perfectly fabulous.  And for petes sake, why can't they include one of those sweet waterfalls on the 18th hole as well.   

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Arrrrgh, you read my mind.  I need a place to play Sunday that's near LAX and I was actually thinking this was reasonably close, if not reasonably priced.  Now I'm ashamed of the thought.  Any other suggestions on something close to LAX.

[David Stamm]

David,

Arrrrgh, you read my mind.  I need a place to play Sunday that's near LAX and I was actually thinking this was reasonably close, if not reasonably priced.  Now I'm ashamed of the thought.  Any other suggestions on something close to LAX.

You've already played the one I'd suggest that's to the North during the Bryan Izzat Invitational.

I'd normally say why not play Los Verdes which is just to the North of Trump, but it's in shambles due to construction. You could try Rancho Park as a walk on, but Sunday may be tough. Angeles National may be worth a looksy,

[Jeff Doerr]

David,

I'd already moved away from SoCal before they started Ocean Trails/Trump National. My question is - who did what at the course? Who designed and redesigned the place?

[Joe Perches]

My favorite ad from last year.  An homage to Trump National...

http://zdownload.zurich.com/main/advertising_campaign_07/US/risk_reward.pdf

[James Bennett]

Joe

Is that a par 3?

If it is, and you cut out the lakes (and perhaps a bunker or two)  from that photo, you could have the current #16 at Ojai.  David will correct me if I am wrong.

If it isn't, where do you hit your tee-shot?  Which fairway bunker gives you the best line of play into the green?

James B

[Kyle Henderson]

As a firm believer that a picture is worth a thousand words, I though I'd post this pic I found of Trump National in LA. I've seen some ask from time to time on the site if this course is worth the effort and money while they are visitng here in granola land. I think this speaks for itself. But hey, it's on the ocean and Pebble is only on a bay!

And to think the Scots passed on his proposal (*pending appeal)...

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

I'm going to Rustic on Thursday with my wife.  Maybe I'll have to do it again on Sunday on my own, although I was hoping to stay nearer to LAX for a red-eye flight that night. I'll have to look at your other suggestions.  Thanks.   

[Mike Sweeney]

"The unique beauty of Whistling Straits, as seen from the 4th tee on a calm spring morning", stated Ran!




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How is this different from Trump LA other than size of bunkers and color of sand. It seems we are willing to pick on Donnie when the real problem is Pete Dye. Does anyone have pics from before Trump took over? Maybe Donnie made it worse, but Pete Dye's record seems to consist of 5 great courses (none of which I have played) and a whole bunch of over the top ones.

More:

[Steve Lapper]

Perhaps you might want to ask Tom Fazio what he was thinking when he put all those bunkers and waterfall in?

[jeffwarne]

Paging Sean Arble!!!!!!!


Actually the waterfall (OK not the waterfall, but the rock ledge)in the FOREGROUND looks incredibly good and natural(by comparison)
with the HORRIFFIC size,volume and shape of those AWFUL looking bunkers which blight what could be an attractive vista across the golf course and coastline.

Assuming they perform minimal maintenance (i.e. as needed, not daily or even regularly )on most of those Dye Whistling Straits bunkers, they work for me as an attempt to give the property a rougher look. Perhaps overkill, but they fit the landscape he created.

[JMorgan]

The difference for me between Mike's Dye example and the Trump National picture is in the quality, and not quantity or magnitude, of ornamentation.  I'm probably stretching this analogy, but it's like buying a Beaux-Arts MacMansion vs. the real pile.  Whether or not you like Beaux-Arts is another matter altogether.

[Sean_A]

Jeff

Needless to say I shant make a special effort to see either of these courses.  I am still a bit stunned when I see pix like this.  I know its a big world out there and anything goes, but this is what guys come up with? 

J

How can you discern the quality of the bunkering and what exactly is quality bunkering when this many are on the landscape?  Most of the reason for bunkering - placement - is completely lost in this mess. 

Ciao

[JMorgan]

Jeff

Needless to say I shant make a special effort to see either of these courses.  I am still a bit stunned when I see pix like this.  I know its a big world out there and anything goes, but this is what guys come up with? 

J

How can you discern the quality of the bunkering and what exactly is quality bunkering when this many are on the landscape?  Most of the reason for bunkering - placement - is completely lost in this mess. 

Ciao

Sean, I should probably have used another descriptor rather than quality ... I was referring more to the natural vs. manmade continuum, and not placement. 

[Peter Pallotta]

It shouts out "Golf is a rich man's game", and pretty proudly too.

Maybe that's not important to anyone; maybe it's not even important to me. Maybe that's always been the case, in one way or another.   

But it just doesn't 'feel' right, for what that's worth.

Peter 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Sweeney:

Excellent analysis / re: Pete Dye.

You hit the nail squarely on the head -- there's no difference between Trump LA layout and that of the Irish Course at Whistling Straits. Both feature the overkill dimension and should be held to the same standard. The second picture you provided, if memory serves, is the hideous blind par-3 hole 13th hole. Simply horrible to look at and even worse to play.

An argument can easily be made that the really innovative stuff Pete brought forward came early in his design career -- save for just a few that followed years later (e.g., The Ocean Course at Kiawah).

[Matt Vandelac]

Wow!
Before you go too far ripping Pete for this or other projects, you should know the background of the projects.  Also, before generalizing as to how Pete did his best work early in his career, you should have an understanding of just what he's been up to.
Although I don't know the whole story of the 'Trump' course in LA, I do know the site was mediocre for just 9 holes and some of the best land was set aside for housing.  I'd guess Pete was happy Don put his name on it when he bought it. 
I can attest that Pete Dye is the connsumate artist.  Although he does have strong opinions in many areas, he is constantly learning and very much a student of architecture.  If you had a chance to follow him throughout a construction project you would be amazed as to the thought process and be hard pressed to find his equal in a living golf course designer.
Although I agree the bunkering at the Irish course is over the top at times, but it is a fun course to play.  Many of these bunkers are out of play and there is very little maintenance: why are acres of maintained bluegrass or bunkers like hell's half acre more palatable?

[George Pazin]

I'm under the impression The Donald takes credit for the re-design. If fact, if you look closely, I believe you can see him in the background of one of the photos, shovel in hand, doing it old school.

An argument can easily be made that the really innovative stuff Pete brought forward came early in his design career -- save for just a few that followed years later (e.g., The Ocean Course at Kiawah).

I sure wouldn't want to make that argument, especially given how many architects who post on here worked with him at some point.

[Matt_Ward]

George P:

Help me with something -- the bulk of what you find at those layouts came from Pete doing the heavy lifting. See the likes of Harbour Town (Nicklaus himself admits he only added a comment here and there), The Golf Club, Teeth of the Dog, Oak Tree, etc, etc.

Matt V:

C'mon - let's be a bit more forthcoming shall we. You say the Irish Course is only "over the top at times" Surely you jest.

The place is nothing more than overkill to the max. The blind par-3 13th is one of the most silliest holes I have ever played from Pete's hand.

I am a fan of Pete Dye but I've said this countless times on this site -- no architect hits home runs with each design. The architects themselves might believe they do but that's more a case of their own self belief / promotion than anything else.

I've played a representative sampling of Dye courses from across the country and I have made it point to highlight those courses that are original and provide a flair for the excitement and those that are nothing more than cheap knock-offs that feature the "let's throw everything at them" design approach.

One other thing -- I'd be curious to know if you have any professional tie to Pete -- either previously or current. Thanks ...

[Garland Bayley]

Mike Sweeney:
...
You hit the nail squarely on the head -- there's no difference between Trump LA layout and that of the Irish Course at Whistling Straits. ...

Ah, the quality of Matt Ward reviews shines through once again.

[rjsimper]

In most cases, you can make a course look awful based on a carefully chosen angle of a photograph.

This is a perfect example of that - Now, I am not saying that Trump National is without problems because it certainly is not...but the problems are issues with spacing, mountain golf, and the terraced nature of the site, not the bunkering or the waterfalls (the latter of these which is of course over the top)

Actually playing the 18th hole, it's one of the best and most spectacular holes in the area...the 17th hole (the one in the foreground with the waterfall) isn't half-bad either.

Again, not saying Trump is worth the money or on the whole, a good course...there are some absolutely awful holes (the par 5 in on the high edge teeing off North from the Southeast corner of the property comes immediately to mind)...but all things being equal, I'd play it once a year or so at a par rate with other courses around - 50-100 bucks) just because it's such a pretty spot and there are at times some cool shots to hit.

[jeffwarne]

Ryan,
is there even an outside chance that that 18th hole at Trump could've been acheived without so many acres of maintained bunkers-and maybe-if possible blending a bit of that with the terrain we see immediately to the left of those bunkers?

While i agree that the setting is/was stunning, I find it hard to believe that hole couldn't have been even more spectacular/less jarring without being so well......... GREEN and WHITE

[Joe Perches]

Is that a par 3?

Well, David M might play it like a par 4, but I think most would probably play it as a 3.

Which fairway bunker gives you the best line of play into the green?

I know you've got the shot to hit and hold the green in you...

[Dean Stokes]

Both courses look awful IMHO. The shame for Donald is he had the better view and possibly an opportunity to build some of the most scenic and brilliant golf holes in the world.
Oddly enough the waterfall does not seem too out of place or ugly. I have heard from several people that have played it,  that his Bedminster course is tremendous.

Dye's bunkering in these photos is just horrible and pointless. It just looks unnatural - again in my opinion.

I was just reading yesterday about Royal Ashdown Forest in the UK. 36 holes with not a single bunker. Apparently very good courses. I wonder how Dye would go with that concept?!

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