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David_Tepper

Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« on: February 12, 2008, 08:38:23 PM »
According to the article on the Dubai tournament in the current issue of GolfWorld, Tiger has now won 33(!) times on the European Tour over the past 10 years. I find that to be just amazing, considering how few Euro Tour events he plays each year.

I presume there is some double counting (the British Open, the World Golf events, etc.) with his 62 PGA wins that are co-sanctioned by both tours.  In any case, there cannot be more than a handfull of Euro Tour members in the last 40 or 50 years (Seve, Faldo & Norman, I am guessing) who have won that many time on that tour.

Talk about becoming a legend in your spare time!   

Mike Benham

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 08:55:51 PM »
"Tiger Woods has won 33 events sanctioned by the European Tour, most of which were major
championships and World Golf Championships events staged in the United States."

13 Majors ...
14 WGC Championships ...
7 European Tour Wins ... 1998, 2000 Johnnie Walker Classic, 1999, 2001, 2002 Deutsche Bank, 2006, 2008 Dubai Desert Classic


Looks like 34 to me ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Dean Stokes

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 09:09:19 PM »
David,
We all know how impressive he is and how well travelled he is, which he can only be comended for. He along with Els and maybe a handful of other European players really are WORLD players.
However he has 13 majors I believe and somewhere around 12/13 WGC's. That means he has only won 7/8 true Euro Tour events. Still not bad in his 10/11 years in the air!
Seve had over 50 wins, Langer had 40, Monty, Woosnam and Faldo all had approx 30.
Still very impressive by Mr Woods.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

David_Tepper

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 09:20:19 PM »
Mike & Dean -

Thanks for sifting thru the data. Only winning 7 or 8 "pure" Euro Tour events is not quite as impressive as 33, but even that stat is significant.  I wonder how many "pure" Euro Tour events he has played in? I would be surprised if it was more than 30 or so.

In the past, he has played in the BMW in Germany, the Dubai event and the Johnnie Walker in Thailand. He has also played an event in China the last couple of years.

It would be interesting to compare his winning percentage in those events to his PGA Tour winning percentage.

DT

Brian_Ewen

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 09:48:07 PM »
"WELL TRAVELLED" ???

Only when there is dollar signs flashing in his eyes .

And to compare him with Els ?

Didnt see Tiger playing in India last week !

JohnV

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 09:56:26 PM »
"WELL TRAVELLED" ???

Only when there is dollar signs flashing in his eyes .

And to compare him with Els ?

Didnt see Tiger playing in India last week !

Right, but you won't see Ernie in Tucson next week.

Buck Wolter

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 10:03:07 PM »
"WELL TRAVELLED" ???

Only when there is dollar signs flashing in his eyes .

And to compare him with Els ?

Didnt see Tiger playing in India last week !

I assume Els doesn't take appearance money -- he might want to think of trying to fly less and win more -- I would say his globe hopping search of guaranteed $ is much worse than Tiger's as it seems to be hurting his performance.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tiger start looking at how he might get his hands on that $10 million check at the end of the year -- how many events would he have to play to qualify for the Euro Tour Championship?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Brian_Ewen

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 10:16:00 PM »
Right, but you won't see Ernie in Tucson next week.

And I thought we were discussing World Golfing Events , not World Golfing Events that MUST be played in America , as you cant expect Americans to travel at this time of the year ?

Dean Stokes

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 10:29:36 PM »
"WELL TRAVELLED" ???

Only when there is dollar signs flashing in his eyes .

And to compare him with Els ?

Didnt see Tiger playing in India last week !

I assume Els doesn't take appearance money -- he might want to think of trying to fly less and win more -- I would say his globe hopping search of guaranteed $ is much worse than Tiger's as it seems to be hurting his performance.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tiger start looking at how he might get his hands on that $10 million check at the end of the year -- how many events would he have to play to qualify for the Euro Tour Championship?
Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth for Finchem?
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

David_Tepper

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 11:08:57 PM »
Does the prize money won in the World Golf events and the 3 majors played in the U.S. count as official prize money won on the Euro Tour? Does one have to be a member of the Euro Tour (which Tiger is not) to have standing on the Euro Tour prize money list?

It is certainly not hard to imagine Tiger leading the prize money list on both Tours in one year, official or not.

Art Roselle

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 11:24:57 PM »
By my quick count, since 1998 he has won 14 times in 32 events outside of the US.  That counts British Opens, but does not include WGC events that happen to be in Europe (because i couldn't tell where they were from the tournament name).  That is higher than his European Tour totals because he has played in things like the Dunlop Phoenix event in Japan and a few other random ones.

I probably don't have the numbers exactly right, but that is in the ballpark.  His website has the results from every event he has entered since 1996.  You can run some scary math and waste a lot of time going through all those 1sts.

Kalen Braley

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 11:28:34 PM »
Looks like Woods is skipping Riviera again this year. I'm not going to bash him for not playing in tourneys and such, but this is the one you would think he would play in every year due to his local ties and getting the sponsor exemptions that he got as an amateur.

Art Roselle

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 11:48:20 PM »
Looks like Woods is skipping Riviera again this year. I'm not going to bash him for not playing in tourneys and such, but this is the one you would think he would play in every year due to his local ties and getting the sponsor exemptions that he got as an amateur.

And since he hasn't won it.  I would expect that to irritate him.  I would think he would play the Crosby from time to time as well, but I guess it would be too much of a circus (as though it isn't already).  If he put himself up to the highest bidder, what do you think someone would pay to be Tiger's partner in the pro-am at Pebble?  $500k?  $1MM?  There is no telling what some hege fund guy, or Japanese real estate mogul or Arab sheik might pony up.  If he announced that he was going to play it only one time and hyped it and then auctioned it off for charity in some high profile auction, it might go even higher.  Any guesses?

Jim Nugent

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2008, 02:06:13 AM »

"Tiger Woods has won 33 events sanctioned by the European Tour, most of which were major
championships and World Golf Championships events staged in the United States."

13 Majors ...
14 WGC Championships ...
7 European Tour Wins ... 1998, 2000 Johnnie Walker Classic, 1999, 2001, 2002 Deutsche Bank, 2006, 2008 Dubai Desert Classic


Looks like 34 to me ...

Just read this on the Euro Tour website, after Tiger's latest win in Dubai...

"With this win Tiger Woods secured his 34th European Tour International Schedule victory in his 80th European Tour event."

He has won 42.5% of the time on the Euro Tour.  Euro Tour stats say Seve won 48 events.  The Masters back then was not an official Euro tournament.  Add his two wins there and that makes 50. 

On whether Tiger should play at Riviera: he knows best what he needs to do, to accomplish his goals.  No obligation or moral duty to play anywhere, unless he has made the commitment. 

« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 02:24:14 AM by Jim Nugent »

Rich Goodale

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2008, 03:01:41 AM »
Does the prize money won in the World Golf events and the 3 majors played in the U.S. count as official prize money won on the Euro Tour? Does one have to be a member of the Euro Tour (which Tiger is not) to have standing on the Euro Tour prize money list?

It is certainly not hard to imagine Tiger leading the prize money list on both Tours in one year, official or not.

David

I ran the numbers a few months ago, and Tiger would have won the Euro Order of Merit something like 6-7 of the last 8 years.

Andrew Mitchell

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2008, 07:54:59 AM »
Does the prize money won in the World Golf events and the 3 majors played in the U.S. count as official prize money won on the Euro Tour? Does one have to be a member of the Euro Tour (which Tiger is not) to have standing on the Euro Tour prize money list?

It is certainly not hard to imagine Tiger leading the prize money list on both Tours in one year, official or not.

David

I ran the numbers a few months ago, and Tiger would have won the Euro Order of Merit something like 6-7 of the last 8 years.

David

As Rich implies you have to be a member of the European Tour to win the Order of Merit.  I believe part of the qualification is to play in 11 events (I think), including co-sanctioned events.

When the Race to Dubai was announced there was speculation in the UK media as to whether this would tempt Tiger to join the Euro Tour.  Given that there are 4 majors and 4 WGC events he only needs to play in three more, he plays every year in the Dubai Desert Classic, leaving only two more to find in his 2009 schedule.  The conjecture was that it would be one in the eye for Finchem should he do so.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Dan Boerger

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2008, 09:16:05 AM »
Let's see ... prize money is bigger in the states, depth of competition better, you get to be closer to your family and friends, he has managed his career to record breaking levels ... now explain to me why Tiger should travel to Europe more? Surely, it can't be to "learn" to play links courses.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Michael Whitaker

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2008, 09:30:17 AM »
Thought you might find this interesting, from an article by Lorne Rubenstein...

...Puterman and Wittman, both avid golfers, analyzed the PGA Tour's money lists from 1980 through 2006. Their sophisticated data analysis produced five clusters or categories of players. They plan to publish their detailed study in an academic journal and, perhaps, to present it in a form more accessible to the layman as well.

"We tried to bring some rigour to the world of golf statistics," Puterman, a 13-handicap who usually researches the health care system, said from his UBC office this week. "A lot of statements are made using data, but without analysis. If I was on the Golf Channel, I would say that you can't say anything without analysis."

Puterman and Wittman, a seven-handicap, refer to the clusters as elite, distinguished, established, journeymen and grinders. Players in the elite category finished in the top 10 an average of 37.75 per cent of the time.

Tiger Woods leads the elite group. The researchers even found a Woods effect. "No other player showed greater dissimilarity from all others as Tiger Woods," they wrote in their study. Woods finished in the top 10 in nearly 90 per cent of the tournaments he played.

Canadians will be interested in fellow citizens Mike Weir and Stephen Ames, although neither is eligible for the Ryder Cup. Weir landed in the lower segment of the elite cluster, finishing in the top 10 20.5 per cent of the time through 2006. Wittman ran the data on Weir through 2007, and he was still in the elite category - just. Twenty-eight players comprise the elite cluster.



"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Sean_A

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2008, 09:32:14 AM »
Let's see ... prize money is bigger in the states, depth of competition better, you get to be closer to your family and friends, he has managed his career to record breaking levels ... now explain to me why Tiger should travel to Europe more? Surely, it can't be to "learn" to play links courses.

I can see Tiger travelling more to Europe to try for the double as top dog on both tours especially once his kid is a bit older.  Also, I could see Tiger perhaps wanting to win certain events like the French Open because its old, often held in cool places and it still pays a fair amount of dosh.  It may be more tempting to have your name on that trophy rather than some run of the mill tourny in Florida or the west coast.  Surely a guy like Tiger must get bored with turning up at places like that. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mark Pearce

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2008, 09:33:07 AM »
Let's see ... prize money is bigger in the states, depth of competition better, you get to be closer to your family and friends, he has managed his career to record breaking levels ... now explain to me why Tiger should travel to Europe more? Surely, it can't be to "learn" to play links courses.

The 10 million Euro jackpot in Dubai next year beats anything the PGA Tour has to offer.

Depth of competition?  I would argue that the strongest European Tour events are just as strong as the PGA Tour events.  It's certainly not as clear cut as it was ten years ago.

I'll give you your third point.

Tiger has held himself out as a "world golfer".  He already competes in Dubai and has competed in WGC events when held in Europe.  He only needs to add two events to get the eleven required (why not, say, the PGA Championship and the Scottish Open).  That's hardly going to interfere with his family life, is it?
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Dan Boerger

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 09:38:10 AM »

Mark -

Are you suggesting that the overall prize money on the European tour is larger than on the US tour?

He's won 42% of the time on the European tour. He doesn't win that often on the US tour. This speaks directly to my point about the European tour being easier.

When did Tiger declare himself a "world golfer"?
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

John Kavanaugh

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2008, 10:36:06 AM »
Who was a better dad...Press Maravich or Earl Woods?  I picked up Pistol in the airport yesterday and not being a book guy was amazed a stayed awake the entire flight reading.  I think a middle school Pistol and Tiger are very similar.

George Pazin

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2008, 10:52:10 AM »
He along with Els and maybe a handful of other European players really are WORLD players.

Actually, given where the European PGA Tour plays, damn near all of those guys are WORLD players.

However he has 13 majors I believe and somewhere around 12/13 WGC's. That means he has only won 7/8 true Euro Tour events. Still not bad in his 10/11 years in the air!
Seve had over 50 wins, Langer had 40, Monty, Woosnam and Faldo all had approx 30.
Still very impressive by Mr Woods.

How many true events has he played? I recall reading his 33 wins came in 83 events. I don't know how many of those are double-counted majors, but I'd guess he wins at a very similar rate to his PGA Tour win rate, which is flat out insane.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 10:56:09 AM »
George,

His PGA your win rate is approx 28%, which is still out of this world good, but not in the same ballpark as 42%.

For comparison, as good as Jack was, his win rate was "only" 12-13%.

George Pazin

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 11:02:56 AM »
Whoops, didn't read all the way down to see someone posted the Euro rate (pun intended).

He must cherry pick the easy Euro events. :)

I recall reading a few years ago that Sergio wanted to lead both tours in $$$ the same year. The funny thing is that if Tiger were a European Tour member, he'd have done it numerous times already.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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